For those who think Bush is the problem...read.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

If you see it from that aspect then the problem runs far deeper than profit medical care. The only thing that has inflated near the same rate as doctor costs is education; therefore the Feds. must step in an reduce the wages in the educational institutes so the people running the colleges do not make millions whilst the teachers make tens of thousands; ESPECIALLY in medical schools.

With reduced educational costs the doctors will not have to charge so much to pay for their education, and of course the government, the same one that sat around scratching is ass and picking its nose as ITS rules destroyed Fannie and Freddie, will use its error free pixie dust to bring their smooth running train to education.

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I know what American medical students pay for their training and it IS expensive but it is not extortionate. American medical students also do get their moneys worth in general, whilst I'm sure there are exceptions the general level of training is excellent.

I don't think you will see a substantial cost-saving by reforming the costs of medical training, even by removing the profit component completely costs won't be reduced substantially. Training doctors is simply an expensive business.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

We already have a doctor shortage. If you take away the incentive for many of them (money), do you really think that they'll continue to devote years of schooling just to come out of school with massive debt they can never pay off? It's not the salary that effects the quality of care. It's the shortage that we have and may be worsened by this that will cause the drop in quality of care.

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You raised two points in your posts (I only quoted this one of yours). You suggested that there'd be worse recruitment and worse retention of doctors. On the latter I'd agree but on the former there won't be any effect. In Italy for example the average doctor earns 1/3 their US equivalent but the government doesn't have a cap on training numbers, end result is that they produce too many doctors and have to export them.

Ultimately if there's a shortfall in doctor numbers you can always deregulate the market a little and allow more overseas doctors to come in to plug holes. Given how well paid American doctors are now there'd be plenty of foreign ones willing to work for a relatively lower salary. Problem then is that you're up against some very powerful medical colleges and lobbies.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

So how do you think this will change the profit motive? Sure the government isn't concerned with profit, but they do still have to worry about costs. It still may not be cost effective to have a doctor in a town of 100, especially with less docs.

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You're probably right in that catering for every town with a population of 100 people will never be cost effective even for a state-run healthcare system. However there's even less incentive for a healthcare service looking for profit to serve rural communities that Bob described because the population density simply doesn't make it worthwhile, and private healthcare doesn't need to provide a service for any other reason.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

If you see it from that aspect then the problem runs far deeper than profit medical care. The only thing that has inflated near the same rate as doctor costs is education; therefore the Feds. must step in an reduce the wages in the educational institutes so the people running the colleges do not make millions whilst the teachers make tens of thousands; ESPECIALLY in medical schools.

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Here medical studies are free, just like all other university studies. So, I think the doctors owe the taxpayers for paying their education.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Many will retire early.

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Why, if their pension is lower than the cut salary?

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Originally Posted by Eki

Why, if their pension is lower than the cut salary?

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They're near retirement anyway. Plus they may not want to deal with all the extra regulations, and beurocratic BS that is comming up. Many other reasons as well.

http://www.investors.com/newsandanal...aspx?id=506199

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/62812

Doctor shortage in the US? Wow...I have news for you. WE have it here with Gov't healthcare. I think the doctor shortage is perception at times in the US...but in Canada it is real. We have communites of 2 and 3 thousand citizens begging for doctors, and taking doctors from foreign nations and giving them perks to set up shop for 5 years....

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Firstly I was talking about salaries not affecting recruitment INTO the field,

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Not true at all. Salary is a big recruitment tool for occupations. In fact the number of students considering a career in the medical field has dropped considerably since the passage of Obamacare.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I've worked in both kinds of institution long enough to know that working in a big-name institution is no guarantee of staff quality.

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Anecdotal evidence but if you really believe that staff at a institution like Johns Hopkins isn't superior than your local free clinic I wish you good health.

[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Doctor shortage in the US? Wow...I have news for you. WE have it here with Gov't healthcare. I think the doctor shortage is perception at times in the US...but in Canada it is real. We have communites of 2 and 3 thousand citizens begging for doctors, and taking doctors from foreign nations and giving them perks to set up shop for 5 years....

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We have doctor shortage in some places too. Most doctors want to live and work in big cities and towns in the south instead of small villages in the north. Increasing the number of educated doctors might help so that not everybody has the chance to pick the place where they work and some would have to accept jobs in undesirable locations or be unemployed, but that could lead to decreased quality of doctors.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Not true at all. Salary is a big recruitment tool for occupations. In fact the number of students considering a career in the medical field has dropped considerably since the passage of Obamacare.

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So? There'll be a new group of people who will find medicine more attractive as the emphasis shifts. Medicine has plenty of other things to offer people apart from money including simply being a bloody interesting job. Medical salaries in the UK have seen a drop year on year for the last three or four decades yet again filling medical school places has not been a problem.

Countries like Cuba pay their doctors peanuts, as do places like Italy. A shortage of doctors is not a problem they have to cope with, quite the opposite in fact. Both countries I believe have more doctors per capita than the US.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Anecdotal evidence but if you really believe that staff at a institution like Johns Hopkins isn't superior than your local free clinic I wish you good health.

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I'm aware that English is not your primary language so I can't be too harsh but you clearly didn't understand what I wrote. If you think academics with a great grip on theory but who don't spend much time practicing clinical medicine are who you want treating you fair enough. There are plenty of extremely skilled people who choose not to work in institutions like John Hopkins simply because they do not like the academic research orientated culture.

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Originally Posted by Eki

We have doctor shortage in some places too. Most doctors want to live and work in big cities and towns in the south instead of small villages in the north. Increasing the number of educated doctors might help so that not everybody has the chance to pick the place where they work and some would have to accept jobs in undesirable locations or be unemployed, but that could lead to decreased quality of doctors.

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Many countries offer financial incentives to work in rural areas or specifically recruit doctors overseas purely for those rural areas (Australia and Canada come to mind). Others like Iran or South Africa with state funded medical education make it mandatory for junior doctors to spend time in rural areas for a period in return for free training. There are plenty of ways to try to tackle the problem.

Anyway, as the bishop said to the actress, let's get back to the Bush. He failed, really, didn't he? I mean, we can argue forever about the hows and whys and whatnots, but when you think back to that triumphant aircraft carrier PR stunt to herald the end of the war, that was ages ago, and well, he failed.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Countries like Cuba pay their doctors peanuts, as do places like Italy. A shortage of doctors is not a problem they have to cope with, quite the opposite in fact. Both countries I believe have more doctors per capita than the US.

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Not sure how little Italy pays their doctors, but to say Cuba has more doctors per capita also ignores the reality that that is the one profession the regime has gone out of their way to cultivate, they still get a lot more than the average worker AND...it isn't like they can emigrate Dylan.

Using Cuba is a bit of an exception that doesn't really help your case.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I'm aware that English is not your primary language so I can't be too harsh but you clearly didn't understand what I wrote.

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Unnecessarily polite, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by fandango

Anyway, as the bishop said to the actress, let's get back to the Bush. He failed, really, didn't he? I mean, we can argue forever about the hows and whys and whatnots, but when you think back to that triumphant aircraft carrier PR stunt to herald the end of the war, that was ages ago, and well, he failed.

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Well as this: If people from places like Syria and North Korea can respect what George stood for...why cant others? Maybe it is because they never lost their freedoms?

Dubya may not be the greatest politican by any stretch, but I think in standing up to dictators, he didn't do as bad as people think... was El Marko's statement, so--- he failed at what.
He bungled the Iraq war, big time, but the Dem. were so busy BS that did absolutely nothing to point out how the war could have been fought better, with less loss of life, Bush's failing was pale compared to the vacuous obtuse statements made by the Dem.

I am glad the aircraft carrier stunt happened, it did make Pres. Bush's errors poignant to the point he either started fighting the war as a war should be fought, kill them till it hurts, or have it hung around his neck like Clinton got stuck with Mogadishu.
Oh yes, a top Al-Qaeda operative said one reason Osama attacked the towers was because he though Bush would do little more than Clinton did in Africa; although Reagan's running from Lebanon and Carter's running from Iran, not to mention cut-and-run in Vietnam, probably had an influence also.

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Originally Posted by fandango

Anyway, as the bishop said to the actress, let's get back to the Bush. He failed, really, didn't he? I mean, we can argue forever about the hows and whys and whatnots, but when you think back to that triumphant aircraft carrier PR stunt to herald the end of the war, that was ages ago, and well, he failed.

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You're absolutely right. Never start anything you can't finish.

Let's go over the list of Bush's failures in case someone forgot:

- 9/11
- unPATRIOTic Act
- War on two fronts
- Debt
- Katrina
- This is a long list....
- I know there's more....
- There just isn't enough space....

The savior of Iraq from falling off the precipice wasn't Bush. Petraeus is the name, son.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

The savior of Iraq from falling off the precipice wasn't Bush. Petraeus is the name, son.

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Petraeus did nothing without the White House OK. Just as Rumsfeld was Bush's fault, Patraeus was Bush's credit, sonny.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Not sure how little Italy pays their doctors, but to say Cuba has more doctors per capita also ignores the reality that that is the one profession the regime has gone out of their way to cultivate, they still get a lot more than the average worker AND...it isn't like they can emigrate Dylan.

Using Cuba is a bit of an exception that doesn't really help your case.

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Does Cuba force students into medicine? No. They make a choice out of free will. Is medicine any easier to study for there compared to other subjects? No. Do they get paid less relative to the rest of the population compared to the US? Yes.

Do they have a recruitment problem for doctors? No. You are right about one thing though, the Cuban government does seem to promote medicine as a career as a duty to both the people and the state, something which helps recruit a different kind of person into the profession other than the moneygrabbing types that go for it in the US.

You'll have to point out a case where lowering doctors salaries has reduced the supply of doctors. There simply isn't one. I could talk about Germany too which has oversupply and how little they earn compared to the US or even Britain. We could talk about Russia where even though doctors earn more than back in the Soviet days there are fewer around purely because the training system collapsed. Its the training system that is the bottleneck, not final salary.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Well as this: [b]If people from places like Syria and North Korea can respect what George stood for...why cant others? Maybe it is because they never lost their freedoms?

Dubya may not be the greatest politican by any stretch, but I think in standing up to dictators, he didn't do as bad as people think... (snipped)

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Yes, that's a fair point. Our opinions are always coloured by our personal perspectives. Living in Spain, President Aznar's dictatorial style of leadership, ignoring the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the people regarding going into war, and his alliance with Bush and Blair, certainly colours my opinion of what the three of them stood for.

The thing is, this idea of standing up for democracy, of going to war against despots in the name of freedom, there's a problem with Bush and his friends: I don't believe them. Not for a moment. Not when you see how they then treat their own democractic freedom and abuse their power. I think they are lieing. Obviously some do believe them, and that means this discussion can go on and on...

And the people of the countries you mentioned are in desperate situations. Desperation leads to grabbing onto any hope there is. This is no endorsement of Bush or anybody.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Does Cuba force students into medicine? No. They make a choice out of free will. Is medicine any easier to study for there compared to other subjects? No. Do they get paid less relative to the rest of the population compared to the US? Yes.

Do they have a recruitment problem for doctors? No. You are right about one thing though, the Cuban government does seem to promote medicine as a career as a duty to both the people and the state, something which helps recruit a different kind of person into the profession other than the moneygrabbing types that go for it in the US.

You'll have to point out a case where lowering doctors salaries has reduced the supply of doctors. There simply isn't one. I could talk about Germany too which has oversupply and how little they earn compared to the US or even Britain. We could talk about Russia where even though doctors earn more than back in the Soviet days there are fewer around purely because the training system collapsed. Its the training system that is the bottleneck, not final salary.

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That's true. If you train more doctors than are needed, the salaries will go down. If you train less doctors than are needed, the salaries will go up. It's about supply and demand.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Petraeus did nothing without the White House OK. Just as Rumsfeld was Bush's fault, Patraeus was Bush's credit, sonny.

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Well said. Rumsfeld wasn't much good as Sec. Of Defence. Another of Bush's faults is that he's too loyal. Once he was finally convinced that Rummy just wasn't gonna work out, replaced him with Gates, and Gates installed Patraeus things changed. And boy did they change QUICK. There weren't too many people, on either side of the aisle, that thought Iraq could be stabilized that fast. Bush, Gates, and Patraeus all deserve credit for that.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Well as this: [b]If people from places like Syria and North Korea can respect what George stood for...why cant others?

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That doesn't say much. Some Russians respected Hitler so much that they joined his army and fought against their own country in WW2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army

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Originally Posted by Eki

That doesn't say much. Some Russians respected Hitler so much that they joined his army and fought against their own country in WW2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army

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I suspect you know that, but you've made a very unfair statement there. The Russian Liberation Army was about fighting against communists, not for Hitler. Or did the Finns also "respect Hitler so much" that they were on the same side?

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Originally Posted by Kristjan

I suspect you know that, but you've made a very unfair statement there. The Russian Liberation Army was about fighting against communists, not for Hitler. Or did the Finns also "respect Hitler so much" that they were on the same side?

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Finns didn't fight against Finns in WW2, except the Terijoki Government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish...ratic_Republic

What I meant was that Bush didn't have the right to invade Iraq just because not all Iraqis liked Saddam's government, Hitler didn't have the right to invade the Soviet Union just because not all Russians liked the communist regime there and Stalin didn't have the right to invade Finland just because not all Finns liked the capitalist government of Finland.

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Originally Posted by Kristjan

....If I were American, I'd miss Clinton, not Bush. Leaving aside what I think were the totally insignificant sex scandals, I think Clinton was an excellent president, for the US and for the world.

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Though I'm a conservative, I can't say too much against Clinton, due to the fact that he maintained his stance on capital punishment and despite the ongoing criticism at the time, he was reluctant to get the US military involved in the Bosnia-Herzegovina conflict until the UN/NATO finally got it right and realized the fact that military air strikes was a necessary ingredient to suppress the violent forces in the region.

He, like other presidents, of course, had his drawbacks as well as good points.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

... but the reality is for the last 8 years I have heard over and over again by people who dislike Bush is how he is such a screw up and we shouldn't be in Iraq...and the reality is, the USA and UK are in Iraq, and THAT is a done deal. It is over...done...finished...the direction of history has changed for good on that score...

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:up: I agree.

I'm not a Bush fan in any sense whatsoever, in fact I am glad he was president and his administration made some poor choices (namely Katrina) that this country got over its' racist self and voted in its' first African-American president, though I'm not an Obama fan either, since I regard him - so far that is - as another status-quo politician. I would have prefered Colin Powell myself.

But you're right about how Bush Jr., takes on too much flak for Iraq. It wouldn't have mattered if Al Gore was prez or for that matter, Tiny Tim and his ukulele, the US would have invaded someday anyways due to Hussien's actions.

I blame Bush Sr., for not getting the job done in the first place, as well as encouraging the Kurds and Shiites to rebel (after we left the region to a No-Fly-Zone policy), then being left to hang. Also the US should have halted their military support of Iraq once the atrocities committed against the Kurds was revealed in the 1980's. But that's another argument in itself...

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Originally Posted by Eki

Finns didn't fight against Finns in WW2, except the Terijoki Government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish...ratic_Republic

What I meant was that Bush didn't have the right to invade Iraq just because not all Iraqis liked Saddam's government, Hitler didn't have the right to invade the Soviet Union just because not all Russians liked the communist regime there and Stalin didn't have the right to invade Finland just because not all Finns liked the capitalist government of Finland.

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In the case of Russia, Finland or Germany, none were entrusted by the UN to enforce sanctions as passed by the UN for the end of the first Gulf War. Furthermore, the consequnces for not respecting the sanctions were spelled out and included the re-commencement of hostilities from the First Gulf War. Since Hussein could have just let the inspectors climb into his palaces but refused to, he handed Bush/Blair the rope, and put the noose around his neck didn't he? You REFUSE to admit this, because it destroys your argument. Nasty thing facts.....

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Petraeus did nothing without the White House OK. Just as Rumsfeld was Bush's fault, Patraeus was Bush's credit, sonny.

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You can't even spell his name correctly twice in the same sentence! Not a great advert for your argument, sonny.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

You can't even spell his name correctly twice in the same sentence! Not a great advert for your argument, sonny.

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No, it just shows I fell into a bad grammatical habit even though earlier on, I spelled it correctly.
That is all it shows.

Now you trying to prove a political point via a typo/s, that is WEAK.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

No, it just shows I fell into a bad grammatical habit even though earlier on, I spelled it correctly.
That is all it shows.

Now you trying to prove a political point via a typo/s, that is WEAK.

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Wasn't trying to prove any political point at all. I was merely pointing out that, yet again, those on the American right who come on here to offer their views generally do so inarticulately.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Does Cuba force students into medicine? No. They make a choice out of free will. Is medicine any easier to study for there compared to other subjects? No. Do they get paid less relative to the rest of the population compared to the US? Yes.

Do they have a recruitment problem for doctors? No. You are right about one thing though, the Cuban government does seem to promote medicine as a career as a duty to both the people and the state, something which helps recruit a different kind of person into the profession other than the moneygrabbing types that go for it in the US.

You'll have to point out a case where lowering doctors salaries has reduced the supply of doctors. There simply isn't one. I could talk about Germany too which has oversupply and how little they earn compared to the US or even Britain. We could talk about Russia where even though doctors earn more than back in the Soviet days there are fewer around purely because the training system collapsed. Its the training system that is the bottleneck, not final salary.

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For years and years it was not difficult to get into med school in the usa.
Then beginning with the 1960's and medicare, the medical profession refused through the AMA and various state boards to increase in enrollment in both state and private med schools.

meanwhile the population skyrockets and at one point in time HALF of the residents in training at USA hospitals came from overseas, while the med profession did its best to avoid increasing enrollment, as in limit supply while demand is going up, then up goes those salary dollars... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Wasn't trying to prove any political point at all. I was merely pointing out that, yet again, those on the American right who come on here to offer their views generally do so inarticulately.

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Well, trying to prove nothing, with nothing, amounts to nothing.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Wasn't trying to prove any political point at all. I was merely pointing out that, yet again, those on the American right who come on here to offer their views generally do so inarticulately.

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Pot. Meet Mr. Kettle!

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Does Cuba force students into medicine? No. They make a choice out of free will.

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Actually they are. Cuban students are routinely forced into studies based on testing and need.

Don't believe the press releases. The Cuban health care system is a disaster. No supplies, Poorly trained and apathetic doctors.

The only good doctors work at "Dollar Clinics" where they take care of Tourists and Cuban Government officials. They get paid better there and receive numerous perks.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Wasn't trying to prove any political point at all. I was merely pointing out that, yet again, those on the American right who come on here to offer their views generally do so inarticulately.

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Great !!

Maybe we can start the "spelling bee" thread. Or better yet all Americans must post using "German"

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Originally Posted by fousto

Great !!

Maybe we can start the "spelling bee" thread. Or better yet all Americans must post using "German"

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That might do you good. I recently read that those who speak two languages every day get dementia in average about 5 years later than those who speak just one language.

Chay.
Does Ojibway count?
I also am fluently bilingual in swear. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Chay.
Does Ojibway count?
I also am fluently bilingual in swear. :eek:

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Probably Ojibway counts. I'm not sure about swearing though.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Actually they are. Cuban students are routinely forced into studies based on testing and need.

Don't believe the press releases. The Cuban health care system is a disaster. No supplies, Poorly trained and apathetic doctors.

The only good doctors work at "Dollar Clinics" where they take care of Tourists and Cuban Government officials. They get paid better there and receive numerous perks.

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I have friends who have gone to Cuba with extra bottles of Asparin in them to "tip" their cleaning staff. So someone who defends the Cuban medical system want to explain why this would be a tip if the Cuban medical system was in good shape? When Maxipads, Asparin and Tylenol are considered "tips" in a nation, you know something is seriously wrong....

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Originally Posted by Eki

Probably Ojibway counts. I'm not sure about swearing though.

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Well, to swear is to assert as true or promise something, but- cussing- is calling some one a stinky poop with more poignant words, or other similar items.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I have friends who have gone to Cuba with extra bottles of Asparin in them to "tip" their cleaning staff. So someone who defends the Cuban medical system want to explain why this would be a tip if the Cuban medical system was in good shape? When Maxipads, Asparin and Tylenol are considered "tips" in a nation, you know something is seriously wrong....

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Shame on you, you mented: acetylsalicylic acid-- or aspirin--
HA- pants on the ground, pants on the ground....http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru.../roll_eyes.gif

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