I just showed this to a friend of mine that doesn't follow racing. The response: "Only Batman could pull it off."
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I just showed this to a friend of mine that doesn't follow racing. The response: "Only Batman could pull it off."
I'm Batman
ROFL!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The more I look at the Delta car and the more I hear people talk about it, the less I object to it... I do not think it is perfect as it sits (need to get those front tires out a bit) - but all of the reasoning behind it is fundamentally sound - one could even argue that it is the beginning of CART part deux where the team owners attack similar issues as in 1979 from a cost perspective instead of a revenue perspective....
I think history will come to regard the introduction of the Deltawing car concept as the second "white paper".......
opens up sponsorship sweetheart deals for Trojan, Viagra, etc.
Agreed. The major fault behind the car was not getting the message out about the car ahead of time. They kept both the car and the message under wraps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
The more you hear about the Delta Wing concept car, as well as Delta Wing LLC in general, the more you feel it is an important step forward.
The lovely thing about this car is that Delta Wing wants to see multiple people building cars based on the concept they put forward. Their entire plan is to open the rules up, yet regulate them as well.
Also, don't forget, this is not the final version of the car. They are going to have to do something to remove the image the front of the car provides, and I think moving the tires out from the chassis would be a good start. Ganassi did say that this is not the final version of the car, and we will see an advanced version.
I really think this is a step that the IRL needs to take. The current formula isn't working, and simply evolving the current formula seems to have a small chance of success just as CCWS had a small level of success with the DP01. Sure, the Delta Wing concept could flop, but I'd rather the series go down swinging instead of simply suffering a slow and drawn out death.
I am not a techincal sort of guy, but I thought the info Miller had last night about the new engines being able to be run 1400 miles between rebuilds was interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
ANYTHING that can be done to drastically cut costs (since the costs are still way out-of-whack and the ROI for sponsors not even close to working) should be considered and implemented if possible.
That can be done, with a different looking chassis, I think.
I thought I seen one of these threads linking to a poll for all the designs...maybe that was just the AR1 home page. At any rate, here is a link to vote on Indycar.com. I figure the more places we can voice our fan preferences the better chance we end up happy. Now with some visual on Lola's concept hopefully we can get a good sample for the league to see.
http://ow.ly/17BdI
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Originally Posted by Chamoo
Which would make it more like a Super Modified.
The Super Modified is a odd looking thing, but it has a TON of horsepower and creates pretty good racing on ovals.
I really think "hiding" the tires is a big part of this DW design. They don't want cars getting up in the air and possibly into the crowd (which is always a possiblity with open-wheel cars on any sort of oval and on some high speed road courses).
If the front tires are significantly inside the wheel width of the rear tires, but still outside the body work, I can't see the front tires being able to run over eachother which is the main problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty G.
I think having them outside the front body work would also help stop people from saying this isn't an open-wheel car.
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Originally Posted by methanolHuffer
The Trojan's Rough Rider
The Pfizer's Blue Pill Special
The might want to change the name of the driver's compartment!
After seeing all the designs, including the Lola's that came out today, here's my opinion: IRL needs to go with the philosophy behind the Delta Wing (particularly an "open-source" chassis) and go with the look of something between the Delta and the Lola. In other words, take the Delta Wing project, and update it to be a bit less radical in look and style, something that reminds us more of current Indy Cars, but still is VERY forward thinking. I don't think that standalone, Lola, Swift, or Dallara will be a step forward for the series.
Danica could get a sponsorship from Doc Martens & Carhartt flannel shirts.Quote:
Originally Posted by methanolHuffer
Would need a shorter haircut through...
I hope somebody licenses a scale model to sell to hobbiests.
I've been thinking about assembling again (wintertime and all). It has been almost 20 years since I've built anything, but this concept would fit nicely on my display ledge.
This all has to be just exciting and nerve wracking for everyone. We all have opinions as fans, but there 3 conventional proposals and one game changer on the table and they have to figure out what is the way out. A wrong decision on appareance can lose fans, but a conventional evolution may not work to make the cars race better. I think two designs must be taken, and somehow hope money is founded for Deltawing to put a prototype out there to prove some of the concepts in reality. It is ugly, but what Bowlby WANTS to do is radical....and could make the IRL totally unique again...
Its not that I'm opposed to the Delta Wing car, per se... Maybe it's ugly, maybe it looks like a road going penis, but ...Lord knows Indycar needs a new exciting radical break from tradition and infusion of high technology to serve as a means to draw in media interest and re-draw spectators back into the Indy car genre...
Its just that I don't think with its small narrow front tires set so close together, its not gonna work - it is just not going to turn !!!
SoCal PE
Interesting posts from Paul Tracy on twitter about the DP01. (Note: I edited the three tweets into a single paragraph.)
GaryQuote:
If you want the truth ! The dp1 car was a good rc car , but as a oval car , the body fit and was terible no 2 parts were ever the same or ever fit the same on the car , the key to a fast oval car is a perfect fit body parts with no gaps or seams , the dp parts fit like crapolla , I'm sure the crapaholics will be pissed at me but that's the truth.
You and I are lay people, we think that based on what we know. The thing is, great ideas never seem plausable. You can be there was guys who saw a plane for the first time at Huffman Prarie in Dayton who thought those Wright boys were fraudsters and then stood back and watched them fly around the field. The concept looks like it wont turn but if Ken Bowlby says it will, I would love him to prove it....Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy
didn't we discuss this earlier in the thread? The car will turn, it uses differential steering. The width of the front wheels is meaningless. Whether it turns as well as Bowlby says it does (better than the current Dallara) is to be seen, but as has been said earlier, the guy is not a complete amateur moron that would put a narrow front end like that if it didn't turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
I know..I keep pointing out until we see this thing in the reality of the race track, we will not know. Personally, I just see the physics of that narrow front end and differential turning or not I don't know.....Quote:
Originally Posted by NickFalzone
The whole thing is I have an open mind on this car, even tho I too don't like the looks of it...
I like most aspects of this "potential" car, more so than the competitors. If they could make it look a little less phallic, even better. If they could put more than one on the track and give us some idea of the racing it could provide, that would be ideal. Unfortunately the IRL will be making their decision on which car to go with in a few months from now, before ANY of these designs go on the track. So we're relying on the IRL to make a crucially important decision without a lot to go on outside of the drawing board. My hope and excitement is with the Delta Wing project, but I am far from optimistic that is the direction they will choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The Delta Wing is the, IMO, latest pied-piper saviour of the Indy Car world.
15 months ago, we were hearing the virtues extolled about the DP-01, which was supposed to revolutionize Indy Car racing. Those vcars are about a worthwhile as the car Jim Hurtubise unveled in the qualifying line some years back with a case of beer in the engine compartment.
There has been the Antares, the Phoenix, The Falcon. Remember what was done to keep competition equal to Andy Granatelli's turbine or Roger Penske's Merc?
The IRL seems done with the concept of cross-contamination of interests. Tony George killed off his own ill-advised race team. Yiou have independent Indy car-qualified manufacturers like Swift, Dallara and Lola. What is the huge bet, worth millions of dollars, for?
We're going by pictures. No track data. No prototype. No manufacturer.
And would you like to be the first driver to hit the wall with that front end?
Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.
The Delta Wing is the, IMO, latest pied-piper saviour of the Indy Car world.
15 months ago, we were hearing the virtues extolled about the DP-01, which was supposed to revolutionize Indy Car racing. Those cars are about as worthwhile now as the car Jim Hurtubise unveiled in the qualifying line some years back with a case of beer in the engine compartment.
There has been the Antares, the Phoenix, The Falcon. Remember what was done to keep competition equal to Andy Granatelli's turbine or Roger Penske's Merc?
The IRL seems done with the concept of cross-contamination of interests. Tony George killed off his own ill-advised race team. Yiou have independent Indy car-qualified manufacturers like Swift, Dallara and Lola. What is the huge bet, worth millions of dollars, for?
We're going by pictures. No track data. No prototype. No manufacturer.
And would you like to be the first driver to hit the wall with that front end?
Those who prefer this are buying the eggs before they hit the store's parking lot.
wow..... even IC is against itQuote:
Originally Posted by indycool
*not to mention we now have teams 'merging'..ala the last days of champcar....
And NASCAR...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
and nascar what?Quote:
Originally Posted by V12
Maybe he's referring to the perceived radicalization that was the Car of Tomorrow(?). Possibly misquoted that post? What say you V12?
I know many a nascar fan had (some still have) reservations about what they drive now.
No, I think those who have said they prefer the DW are saying they prefer to see it hit the test track to see if it is viable or not. I don't think anyone who has expressed a preference for it are willing to back it without so much as a prototype being built.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Gary
BTW I am curious as to your comment about who wants to be the first to hit "the wall with that front end". Why do you feel the design of the front end is any more fragile than those we have now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by V12
Gee Ken, it's not as if V12 didn't quote EXACTLY what was being compared as similar to NASCAR. 'Twas your swipe at teams merging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
and as i posted.....it is in fact more similar to champcar than nascar
your milage or rose colored glases may vary
No...it is just a really radical concept. I don't recall anyone saying it was the only solution other than the people backing the project.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
The DP-01 was not a joke, it was a pretty decent race car, and it only had one year of service. We don't know how it could have evolved. I don't doubt it could have been adapted to run Indy and other ovals just as the Dallara was made to turn right.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Changing the rules when one one guy builds a better mousetrap is a fine Indy tradition. I am almost shocked that USAC didn't try to ban midengined IndyCars when Brabham showed up with the Cooper in 61. They killed mid engined sprint cars.....Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
First off, an engineer designed the car. One who has designed cars for Lola and others in the past. If he says it is "crashable" I will take his word on it. It is a concept..nothing more, but there are interesting ideas and technologies being advocated that I would love to see proven or disproven in this design before I just write it off as ugly. Heck, the Dallara has been around almost a decade and we still don't accept its look.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Gary, Ken, Mark,
With the long nose, the DW can't be that rigid in the front, even though the drivers' feet will be well behind. I don't know where the chassis' firewall points are but it looks toi me like the car's center of gravity will be well back. On today's tracks, contact with a sideways car could be very nasty.
Lack of testing, particularly crash testing, disturbs me. Those side-by-side shots of a dragster and the DW make me wonder about Turn 11 at Long Beach and if the turn ratio is actually good enough to make it.
I just think a lot more needs to be done before we see the thing in competition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
How do you know how rigid it might or might not be, have you had a chance to see under the skin? Come on IC, give the designer a LITLE credit he knows ful well what the structural requirements are.
Why should lack of testing disturb you? This was and is a design exercise no more no less. The next phase (if it advances to that) would be to build a proototype and begin the testing phase. You are acting as if they plan to go into production immediately? Sheesh, man, did you not ready any of the press releases??? They all said pretty much the last thing your sentence does.
I would fully understand your comments if an announcment was made or even a suggestion was made that the car was ready to go as is. But that has never been suggested even by the folks here who are in "voting" in favor of the car.
Gary
IC, I echo most of Gary's points (if not all). This is a concept and the guy who designed the thing is claiming all this good stuff that it can bring to the IRL. He isn't some turkey out of the asylum on a day pass, he was a former chief designer for Lola, who the last time I looked built some rather successful race cars. If he says it will be safe, it likely will be. Carbon fibre is a wonderful substance. I agree it doesn't LOOK like it will work, but if the guy builds this beast and it works, you might be eating enough crow that you would be coughing up feathers.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
What we are pointing out is there is a LOT of concepts and ideas on this thing that are pretty good ideas in THEORY. We didn't say we want the car in the field next May in Indy.....
I stand corrected. You guys are looking to the futrure with this thing and I am, too. The sport isn't going to get healthy with it right now, but it may in soime form in the future.
Actually I have to side with IC a bit on this one. The nose is so far cantilevered out there and so thin that it will be suseptible to breaking at about the middle if a nose first sort of angled impact would happen. Right about where the drivers knees appear to go. Now they could beef up the structure there so that it wouldn't break. But that adds weight, even if it's made out of kevlar/carbon/honeycomb. And weight in a three wheeler (which basically this is) is a bad thing when it's away from the end with two wheels because the farther the CG is from the two wheeled end the more dynamically unstable it is.
Now that being said, I also side with Mark and some others. If this thing is built, and is allowed to run against other designs (sort of like the "good old days"), and beats the snot out of them, then I'm all for it. But I doubt that the current mindset of single make chassis is about to change. So we'll see what happens.
I was on the Autoweek website reading about the stillborn USf1 effort, and took a link to their story on the Delta Wing project. The whole idea of this thing is to build one prototype and then let everyone have the data and plans. They want teams to take this concept and do what they want to evolve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
The other point is you guys keep looking at that long nose and thinking it will break in half but if the driver is set back in far enough, a lot of that nose is crushzone. With carbon fibre, this concept is likely doable. They say they can make it work...I hear your complaints Chuck and IC about that nose, but I am thinking that they must have examined this concept's flaws, detratctors and issues and stand behind it on something more than good will. They have numbers and they have some idea of what is required from an engineering standpoint.
IT may be ugly, but the engineering of this is so far beyond anyone's logic in the evolution of the race car that if this thing hits the track and does HALF of what they claim, then it is a step up.
this is where i get hung up on the entire project related to cost...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
one actual builders get hold of the basic 'conceptual plans'.....and reengineer it ... tweak it test modify it update it build and deliver it I dont believe the projected 1/4 to 1/2 cost for a second.......
That might work. I like the idea of having a tub type structure that others can modify. Not sure if that is exactly what they have in mind, but could be. :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Yes, that long nose is a big crush zone, in a head on impact. How often does that happen? More often than not, there is an angle between the car and the wall. That creates a moment arm somewhere in the chassis. This has a tendency to shear the tub basically in the middle. Think Stan Fox at Indy in '95.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
As for your faith in these guys' engineering abilities ... While I agree they have done some good cars in the past, but this is slightly different. Everything I've read suggests that they have focused mostly on the aero bits of the car. Lots of CFD, and wind tunnel time. That along with the relatively short time they've been doing this, I wonder how much time they've really spent on crash testing/modeling. If I've missed that in one of the many press releases please point me to it. But until I see some crash tests, or FEA models, I have my doubts. After all, like you keep saying, this is a model, not even a prototype yet. So I'm skeptical at this point, sorry.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Not sure who said that, but it seems to fit in this case. And some of us do have, at least, a basic understanding of engineering, specifically race car dynamics, so I'm not sure it's "beyond anyone's logic".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa