Breakaway series is go!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76310
Force India waiting on F1 future

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Force India boss Vijay Mallya has suggested his team is undecided on its future in Formula 1 following FOTA's decision to create a breakaway championship.
Force India and Williams have been the only two current teams who submitted unconditional entries for the 2010 championship.
However, FOTA announced on Thursday night that, after failing to reach a deal with the FIA, will launch its own series with its eight member squads.
Mallya said he was sad that it was not possible to reach a compromise deal, and suggested his team will consider its options following this weekend's events.
"We have been completely open and transparent with FOTA," said Mallya in a statement.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

He mentions "companies, television contractors" but says "any of our contracted people" and there are quite a few of those!

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FOTA can go to anyone they like and GreedyBernie can do squat about it. Afterall, those companies can not be forced to just show or sponsor F1

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Originally Posted by SteveMcQueen

It is close to impossible to pull off a series with that sort of professionalism in mind in barely 10 months time, just forget it.

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Why? Could you expand on why you think it is impossible, because I dont see it like that at all.

Three things are running through my head now and I'd like to know what you guys think of it all:

1. TV Coverage - any TV company that runs F1 now will be blocked from showing the new breakaway series. Thats ok in some European countries and the USA that has millions of TV stations, but what about the rest. For example South Africa would lose out totally because its not soccer so ETV won't be interested and the SABC don't have the finances to buy the coverage. Supersport are the current F1 coverage people and they won't be able to cover the series. Now repeat that in a lot of countries, no doubt, and your fan base is instantly smaller. Look at how bad the worldwide coverage of A1GP is.

2. Any FIA sanctioned circuit will be blocked from hosting these races, which leaves where exactly to race? Forget Silverstone, etc. No circuit can survive on the takings from 1 race weekend in a year so they have to run smaller events as well, and if they can't run FIA events, who do they run? So no circuit will take the series with that hanging over their heads.

3. Any driver taking part in the series will be banned (possibly for life, like what happened with the cricket guys playing that non-ICC santioned Indian cricket league) from taking part in any FIA sanctioned event - so forget the likes of Bourdais racing at Le Mans for example. Can these drivers seriously depend on being in this racing series long enough to make enough money to not worry about being banned from racing afterwards?

1. i'd be surprised if the current TV contracts exclude the companies from showing rival series - after all when the contracts were written they were no natural rival series, and they can't retrospectively amend the contracts now.

the contract also probably has some requirement for FOM to provvide the premier F1 world championship racing consisting of a minimum 18 cars and some specific venues - when the FIA/FOM championship faiols to provide this the TV guys will jump anyway.

2. as stated previously any european track is free to run any event, the FIA cannot stop them.

outside of Europe i'm not so sure of the details, but the US and Canada run under their own governance for the tracks, and the Asian countries have plenty of domestic series running on their (under used) FIA sanction circuits.

3. FIA don't run Le Mans for a start, its the ACO in France.

the FIA don't have the power in this struggle, i think there would be plenty of tracks available and the drivers will go with the teams wherever they see the pinnacle championship.

i share some of your concerns on TV coverage, but the FOTA release did mention about availability on Free to Air TV

just a thought - GP2 is Bernies yeah, and races on the F1 support bill.

MAx has managed to create F2 (running on WTCC bill), with a Williams designed chassis.

Max will move F2 to GP2's spot, beneath the near spec (2 definite teams with cars, 2 new entrants and a coiuple of reserves who may or may not still want to play when Max gets to them) all cosworth F1.

Bernie takes FOM to GP1, with GP2 as the support series?

F1 and F2 die a slow death, but noone notices, hopefully Williams get out and come to play with the proper teams and GP1 continues where the current F1 left off - we can hope?

Local governing bodies are free to run series however they like within their own borders, so NASCAR in America, ACO in France, BTCC in the UK, can act as they like with no input from the FIA.

FIA only has jurisdiction when a championship is being run internationally.

so drivers can go anywhere outside GP1 except the FIA series (i can't believe the FIA would be so stupid to exclude the drivers anyway), and the European circuits and non-euro, non FIA circuits could take GP1

Monaco is like the Indy version of of F1,

who will be there, FOTA or bernei?
If monaco goes FOTA, bernie's circus is kaput

If it does not, then the whole split thing will go kaput

Besides I bet money there are all these european anti-trust laws that ought to take care of the retialiation

If FOTA gets Monaco, Spa, Monza, SILVERSTONE and THE USA!!!!!!
Then it will be going good---add in regs that ensure competitive engines (Merceded or whoever)for all those "other new" entries, and they will follow with the big boys

Nothing mandates that the FIA has exclusive jurisdiction over international racing, it is merely a sanctioning body among others

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Why? Could you expand on why you think it is impossible, because I dont see it like that at all.

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They have no arguments. all they say it's impossible! It's like the guy this morning on the BBC broadcast, who was repeating that it's impossible to achieve what Bernie and Max achieved, but he never had an effin' argument to support his butt kissing.

When I see people believe that manufacturers, that existed and prospered for more than half a century and who between them are one of the strongest groups on Earth, can't put together a calender of 10-15 races and sign a few TV broadcasting contracts, I just realize how many idiots live in this world!
And that somehow explains why some of us have to work twice as hard to making things advance while these mules are keeping pulling in the wrong direction.

Monaco will go with Ferrari

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Monaco is like the Indy version of of F1,

who will be there, FOTA or bernei?
If monaco goes FOTA, bernie's circus is kaput

If it does not, then the whole split thing will go kaput

Besides I bet money there are all these european anti-trust laws that ought to take care of the retialiation

If FOTA gets Monaco, Spa, Monza, SILVERSTONE and THE USA!!!!!!
Then it will be going good---add in regs that ensure competitive engines (Merceded or whoever)for all those "other new" entries, and they will follow with the big boys

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Monaco goes with Ferrari , the other European venues are free to chose their side or run both races.

The FOTA will be proposing contracts with much smaller fees than Bernie has and the tracks might even make some money out of the races for once!

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Originally Posted by Mark

Local governing bodies are free to run series however they like within their own borders, so NASCAR in America, ACO in France, BTCC in the UK, can act as they like with no input from the FIA.

FIA only has jurisdiction when a championship is being run internationally.

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And even than, what if every local automotive body sanctions the race held in their country?

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Originally Posted by Bruce D

Three things are running through my head now and I'd like to know what you guys think of it all:

1. TV Coverage - any TV company that runs F1 now will be blocked from showing the new breakaway series.

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That is not enforceable in Europe due to the European laws on freedom of competition.

yeah the individual races are free to be standalone series, each with their own champion - and oh, look, we've just totalled up the points from each championship and decided to give the leader a prize, we'll call them the World Champion ;)

To be honest I think that if the breakaway series starts to have a realistic contour Max will not win the FIA elections anymore, he might even prefer not to run to avoid being humiliated (not sure given some of his spare time activities).

All it needs is for the FOTA to propose a strong candidate who will be supported by the FOTA, the ACEA and by many national governing bodies.

like a certain Jean Todt?

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Originally Posted by Robinho

like a certain Jean Todt?

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Him or Ron Dennis, or maybe both as a support for a 3rd neutral person.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Monaco goes with Ferrari , the other European venues are free to chose their side or run both races.

The FOTA will be proposing contracts with much smaller fees than Bernie has and the tracks might even make some money out of the races for once!

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monaco is the key, (along with some other great tracks like Monza and Spa and Silverstone) as when the CART bust up occurred, all the great teams and drivers went CART, but TG still had Indy.....

the real fans wanted the great teams and drivers, but sponsors and TV wanted Indy and its associated PR

so it is not nearly enough for the big eight to go, the tracks must be there

then we can all come back in about 20-30yrs and do all this again when the new breed have had enough!

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Originally Posted by markabilly

monaco is the key, (along with some other great tracks like Monza and Spa and Silverstone) as when the CART bust up occurred, all the great teams and drivers went CART, but TG still had Indy.....

the real fans wanted the great teams and drivers, but sponsors and TV wanted Indy and its associated PR

so it is not nearly enough for the big eight to go, the tracks must be there

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Do you have a reading problem too?!
It's been mentioned endless times that Monaco will go where Ferrari goes. :rolleyes:

Also the other tracks have nothing to lose signing up with FOTA given that the fees will be less than half of what Bernie extorts.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Do you have a reading problem too?!
It's been mentioned endless times that Monaco will go where Ferrari goes. :rolleyes:

Also the other tracks have nothing to lose signing up with FOTA given that the fees will be less than half of what Bernie extorts.

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say it when they announce officially that monaco has signed on and cancelled with maxie

my deep down suspicion is that old maXie, who is a machevillian master, will figure out some way to conquer and divide as he did using Ferrari a few years ago, to drag the teams back in to the old corral.....I hope not, but.......... :(

TRACKS for me in addition to monaco:
Silverstone
Monza
Spa-Francorchamps
Suzuka
A1-Ring
Gilles Villeneuve
Nurburgring
Indianapolis
Laguana Seca
Sao Paulo
Hockenheim

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Originally Posted by markabilly

monaco is the key, (along with some other great tracks like Monza and Spa and Silverstone) as when the CART bust up occurred, all the great teams and drivers went CART, but TG still had Indy.....

the real fans wanted the great teams and drivers, but sponsors and TV wanted Indy and its associated PR

so it is not nearly enough for the big eight to go, the tracks must be there

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Yep, and it wasn't that long before the big teams jumped ship to the IRL and CART began its downward spiral.

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Originally Posted by Bruce D

Three things are running through my head now and I'd like to know what you guys think of it all:

1. TV Coverage - any TV company that runs F1 now will be blocked from showing the new breakaway series. Thats ok in some European countries and the USA that has millions of TV stations, but what about the rest. For example South Africa would lose out totally because its not soccer so ETV won't be interested and the SABC don't have the finances to buy the coverage. Supersport are the current F1 coverage people and they won't be able to cover the series. Now repeat that in a lot of countries, no doubt, and your fan base is instantly smaller. Look at how bad the worldwide coverage of A1GP is.

2. Any FIA sanctioned circuit will be blocked from hosting these races, which leaves where exactly to race? Forget Silverstone, etc. No circuit can survive on the takings from 1 race weekend in a year so they have to run smaller events as well, and if they can't run FIA events, who do they run? So no circuit will take the series with that hanging over their heads.

3. Any driver taking part in the series will be banned (possibly for life, like what happened with the cricket guys playing that non-ICC santioned Indian cricket league) from taking part in any FIA sanctioned event - so forget the likes of Bourdais racing at Le Mans for example. Can these drivers seriously depend on being in this racing series long enough to make enough money to not worry about being banned from racing afterwards?

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I disagree with your points completely.

TV rights - there would be contractual obligations for Bernie to provide a particular show, like he has with the tracks. If he can't provide that show then many of the TV contracts may be invalid.

Circuits - plenty host FIA sanctioned and unsanctioned races, Le Mans isn't FIA sanctioned for a start and that entire series runs at plenty of tracks that host FIA sanctioned events. Plus if the FIA tries to exclude tracks from having contracts with non-FIA formulae the EU monopolies commission may get interested.

3 - again anti-competitive authorities may take an interest in employees (which is what drivers are at the end of the day) being excluded from work because they happened to work for the 'wrong' company.

If FOTA do break away they hold some strong cards. Their biggest problem is time, do they have enough?

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Originally Posted by Mark

Yep, and it wasn't that long before the big teams jumped ship to the IRL and CART began its downward spiral.

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actually, my opinion is they both went down the toilet, but irl is still just stuck in the toilet like a stuck t**d, barely survivng on the danica sideshow

unfortunately it took down OW racing with it in the USA,

now nascar runs at Indy and draws close to the same number of people

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Originally Posted by markabilly

actually, my opinion is they both went down the toilet, but irl is still just stuck in the toilet like a stuck t**d, barely survivng on the danica sideshow

unfortunately it took down OW racing with it in the USA,

now nascar runs at Indy and draws close to the same number of people

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F1 doesn't really have a rival in Europe or the rest of the world in the same sense that Indy/CART did with NASCAR. There are lots of small rivals like GT racing, JGTC and WRC dotted around the world but I doubt any of them are capable of growing quickly enough to pose a threat to F1/FOTAF1.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

say it when they announce officially that monaco has signed on and cancelled with maxie

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There is nothing to cancel, they do not have a a contract with anyone.

Monaco is not a track - it consists of public roads. If Prince Rainier wants to run a second race on his roads there in a year, who is to stop him?

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Originally Posted by markabilly

actually, my opinion is they both went down the toilet, but irl is still just stuck in the toilet like a stuck t**d, barely survivng on the danica sideshow

unfortunately it took down OW racing with it in the USA,

now nascar runs at Indy and draws close to the same number of people

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Back in america the crowd and viewer base is very limited , that why both series could not gather enough share of viewer's

F1 viewership if very large and also about 90% of the viewer's are very pissed on MAX . so the series will suceed.

There are a lot of armchair lawyers crawling out of the woodwork recently :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Monaco is not a track - it consists of public roads. If Prince Rainier wants to run a second race on his roads there in a year, who is to stop him?

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Since he is the boss of the country and can do whatever he likes, nobody :D

The FIA have responded to FOTA's latest attempt at negotiation:

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The FIA is disappointed but not surprised by FOTA’s inability to reach a compromise in the best interests of the sport. It is clear that elements within FOTA have sought this outcome throughout the prolonged period of negotiation and have not engaged in the discussions in good faith.

“The FIA cannot permit a financial arms race in the Championship nor can the FIA allow FOTA to dictate the rules of Formula One.

“The deadline for unconditional entries to the 2010 FIA Formula World Championship will expire this evening.

“The 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship entry list will be announced tomorrow.

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http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/...ota-breakaway/

So that's that then. No compromise. Expect the finalised entry list to be Williams and Force India; Ferrari and the RBR teams (the FIA believe they're contracted to race); plus a whole lot of new teams.

The two big questions in FIA vs FOTA war so far have been FOTA's ability to stay united despite Max' and Bernie's endless attempts of diving them. And secondly, whether FOTA is successfully capable of forming its own series. If those two premises are fulfullied (so far, so good!), FOTA has a great chance of winning this war.

People keep talking about "two competing series", but - to be honest - if FOTA manages to set up its own series quickly and successfully, I see no rivalry - FOTA-series would be way above. F1 - if it continues to exist in that way - with its Marches and Litespeeds would only play a role of a feeder series for FOTA. Max and Bernie should know this, but it seems that they would rather kill F1 than give up their power. And this is the keyword of the whole struggle.

Not that I'm an advocate of FIA but me thinks FOTA are copying Max's negotiating tactics.

I'll believe this breakaway nonsense when all the contracts are signed, 2010 calender published and then the start of the new championship.

FOTA: call your bluff. The ball is still in your court.

So when does everyone think the remaining eight teams will submit their inevitable entries to the FIA championship tonight? I'm going for about 11.30!

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Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

So when does everyone think the remaining eight teams will submit their inevitable entries to the FIA championship tonight? I'm going for about 11.30!

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FIA has put on hold on the release of new entry list, till things gets clear.

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Originally Posted by wedge

FOTA: call your bluff. The ball is still in your court.

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Is that you Max?! The ball lies right in front of you! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

So when does everyone think the remaining eight teams will submit their inevitable entries to the FIA championship tonight? I'm going for about 11.30!

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Won't happen.

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Originally Posted by race_director

FIA has put on hold on the release of new entry list, till things gets clear.

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They've not extended the deadline though, have they? That is, the process of officially choosing from the entries received has been suspended, but all who wish to enter must have an unconditional entry in by tonight.

And with the FOTA teams along with Lola, Prodrive and NTech withdrawing, well...

My thoughts:

First:
Max. What does he want? I mean REALLY want. His statements on the budget cap being necessary to keep F1 an open technological contest while keeping it sustainable, if true and without agenda, are very laudable and strike a chord with me.

HOWEVER - I judge people on actions rather than words. He could have set up F2 in the image of his proposed new F1 (on a smaller scale of course), but instead he chose the FPA+ route. A piece in Autosport at the turn of the year said that Max's real dream is a spec series, and not only a spec series, but a centrally-run one without traditional racing teams.

If the split goes ahead, F1 will likely be 100% Cosworth powered. Nothing wrong with that if they are the only company capable of supplying a decent motor at this point in time, but is this the thin end of the wedge that sees Max mandate ubiquity by stealth?

"Oh look, everyone's using the same engine anyway, let's make it mandatory." He's already got tyres covered, so then he could start weasling his way into the chassis side...a common part here and there...and increasing until everyone has to use the same car.

Second:
FOTA's search for a promoter. I agree with the poster who said Dorna are bad news. Under their watch MotoGP have followed F1's lead by booting out Michelin and making everyone use Bridgestones, and implementing various technical restrictions in the name of "cost cutting" and "the show". MotoGP is going down the same slippery slope as F1, just a bit higher up said slope.

Their boss Ezpeleta (sp?) is always appearing in news articles piping up about how they need to change this, that, and the other. You are not wanted - go away.

Third:
CART/IRL analogy. People are comparing Monaco and the Indy 500, but I think it's slightly different. Monaco is a prestigious event, probably the most prestigious event, but it's just one prestigious event among others (Britain, France, Italy, Belgium etc.). IndyCar is unique at being so gravitated to one event, hell that's evident even in the name - IndyCar. F1 isn't called "MonacoCar".

I agree a split could well have the damage that the US split had, but unlike over there, where in the long run there was only ever going to be one winner (the one who had Indy), I think the resolution to any split here will be more decided on individual merits (a combination of best drivers, teams, tracks, technology, and *shudders* "show"). There will be no Indy-style trump card that beats all by default.

Finally:
What will I do if the split goes ahead? Well I'll probably watch both to begin with, although if Max's F1 even looks like heading towards Max's F2 model, I'll file it under "irrelevancy" and act like it doesn't exist.

But, if the manufacturer-less F1 becomes a playground for garagiste constructors pitting ideas off against each other, if the budget caps work and the technical rules aren't micro-managed to the n-th degree like they are currently, I would prefer it to any manufacturer breakway series, although I would still watch both. And no I still wouldn't care about "the show". You're talking to a guy whose favourite season in his own living memory is 1992 :)

(Apologies for the long post, but I had a lot to cover for a 10 page thread!)