Tony George ousted from IMS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

IMO, Ken's link in post #158 to Bruce Martin's piece seems the most logical. The family seemingly has not been shy about shoveling dollars where they're needed, be it a new grandstand or pagoda at the Speedway, the IRL, Vision Racing or whatever. The company hasn't hesitated to bring people in and try them to reach goals they need. If some type of reorganization is planned at the family level, or structure level, guess I'll watch what happens and draw an opinion from that.

---

Ah, IC, it's been a while. I guess that's all any of us can do. But something must have happened on the board side to set these events, whatever they really are, in motion. Improvments to the racetrack are logical and to be expected, whether for specific events or as part of long term maintenence, but using funds to prop up a series like the IRL have to be looked at a bit differently. I'm very interested to see if Humpy Wheeler shows up at the Brickyard 400 and if anything else reaches the surface by then.

As I read it, it was Humpy's first visit to Indy since 1970 when he was with Firestone.

Have you heard any reports of Humpy and IMS folks talking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starter

So far, that is pure speculation. A good idea perhaps, but when was the last time any one controling a major racing series acted on a good idea? :p

---

NASCAR and F1 started banning good ideas just a few years ago. But in AOWR? Gee... uh... maybe... :confused: I think I was still wearing a white sport jacket and no socks on weekends, and I only knew about there being one George Bush. Whoever said, "the future is always bright" should have their azz kicked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starter

So far, that is pure speculation. A good idea perhaps, but when was the last time any one controling a major racing series acted on a good idea? :p

The "TG out" rumor seems to have more basis.

---

Speculation? That was a question, Starter...

"No" would have been just fine, even though I am waiting for IndyCool, too :D

There was a rumor flying around a year or so ago that the IRL approached Eddie Gossage. Apparently he is happy right where he is. Besides, considering the pummeling TG and Barnhart get for everything, why would anyone want to put themselves in a position where they would be the subject to the wrath of bloggers and intardnet experts who perpetuate every myth and rumor until it becomes "fact"?

Chap, there didn't appear to be any rumors circling about Humpy joining the IMS staff in connection with the thread topic. All I heard was that, since Humpy didn't have Charlotte to do any more, and it's the Centennial Era at IMS, he was invited to attend for the first time in a long time when it hadn't been possible before, and he did....he was part of another era of Indy car racing when he was with Firestone years ago.

The only time I have heard Humpy's name mentioned was by Robin Miller on a report during Speed's Sunday call-in show, hosted by Dave Despain. In that report by Robin he threw out Humpy's name as well as Tim Mayer (who recently resigned from ALMS) and said there was speculation that those 2 names were in the mix as a replacement for TG.

I think if Humpy was going, he would have been there by now. Humpy doesn't screw around when he wants to do something. That said, I would love to see him take over things up there.

Great thread boys...I was gone 10 days and it took me the better part of an hour to get to the end.

I know Tony still has his job, but things have gone quiet. That means little other than it still could happen.

I think ideally we all want a strong Indy 500 as a jewel in a series of 18 to 20 races, about one third to one half on ovals, in about 4 countries, with numerous engine possibilities and a few chassis. THAT would be idea...and we had it once. Someone wanted all of that under his thumb..and he doesn't have it now...all though he has the illusion of control at this point.

I have no idea where this sport will go in the next year, but we are at the tipping point. I do know this much. The Indy 500 wont die any time soon, but I will tell you that its place is pretty much gone as the top of the racing food chain in North America in any form. It was once the leader...now it is taking a back seat to most of the NASCAR Cup events at Daytona, Darlington, Richmond, Texas, Bristol and yes...the Brickyard 400 in the eyes of many.

Something HAS to happen. Tony cant get this series to where it needs to go, and the stepmom and the sisterhood have finally figured this out and are holding him to account. We just need to wait.

Oh...one more thing.

Rush Limbaugh isn't as smart as he likes to think he is, but he is a damn sight more right ( as in right and wrong ) than his detractors would like to admit. If this wasn't so, the staff of the President of the US of A wouldn't spend so much time attacking him. When you attract that sort of political heat, you must be right on something...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilf

What did Robin say? Yes there will be changes in the future, but that isn't what he said; he said it was a done deal.

Why do we always give Robin a pass; he's no Bill Clinton.

---

Looks like Robin Miller OWNS you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I think if Humpy was going, he would have been there by now. Humpy doesn't screw around when he wants to do something. That said, I would love to see him take over things up there.

Great thread boys...I was gone 10 days and it took me the better part of an hour to get to the end.

I know Tony still has his job, but things have gone quiet. That means little other than it still could happen.

I think ideally we all want a strong Indy 500 as a jewel in a series of 18 to 20 races, about one third to one half on ovals, in about 4 countries, with numerous engine possibilities and a few chassis. THAT would be idea...and we had it once. Someone wanted all of that under his thumb..and he doesn't have it now...all though he has the illusion of control at this point.

I have no idea where this sport will go in the next year, but we are at the tipping point. I do know this much. The Indy 500 wont die any time soon, but I will tell you that its place is pretty much gone as the top of the racing food chain in North America in any form. It was once the leader...now it is taking a back seat to most of the NASCAR Cup events at Daytona, Darlington, Richmond, Texas, Bristol and yes...the Brickyard 400 in the eyes of many.

Something HAS to happen. Tony cant get this series to where it needs to go, and the stepmom and the sisterhood have finally figured this out and are holding him to account. We just need to wait.

Oh...one more thing.

Rush Limbaugh isn't as smart as he likes to think he is, but he is a damn sight more right ( as in right and wrong ) than his detractors would like to admit. If this wasn't so, the staff of the President of the US of A wouldn't spend so much time attacking him. When you attract that sort of political heat, you must be right on something...

---

Just a few points. IC, I hope you'll clue us in on any more details coming out of Indy, especially in the wake of the announcement from IMS. So long, Tony George.

For those of you out there who were so skeptical of Robin Miller (and I'm not accusing anyone in particular), the crow is fully sauteed and marinated and ready for your delectable consumption. With all due respect Mark, it is Robin Miller who is more right than wrong, a thorough reporter who doggedly researches his facts, while Rush Limbaugh sits at his chair on his radio show, creating a fantasy world (while reportedly remaining sober and clean of drugs) from events he sees on the evening news. He openly says he hopes his President fails, one of the most unpatriotic things I have ever heard mentioned by anyone (even John Wayne said he hoped JFK was successful). Obama pretty much leaves him alone, allowing Limbaugh's comments to speak for themselves, which is smart on his part. Obama and his staff only respond to most outrageous lies and gross inaccuracies, which they have to since you don't to just stand there all the time and get beat up without a response. To call Rush Limbaugh an idiot, would be offensive to idiots everywhere.

Robin Miller can take a lot of pride in his reporting on this. Nobody else was even close on this at the time he reported it. Just imagine if the Indy Star hadn't caved into pressure from IMS and Miller was still there and had reported under their banner - they would be bragging about this until the Indiana cows came home.

What we now have to do, as fans of open wheel racing, is consider George's ouster in the larger perspective of what the future holds for open wheel racing, and the IRL in particular. The IMS gravy train is over, the series needs a new chassis (or new chassis', or bring back the Panoz, just get rid of the current ugly cars) and at least two more engine suppliers. What if Honda says "That's it, we're done" at the end of the current contract? Where would that leave Indy Car racing?

I can't help but wonder what would have happened in reunification negotiations if The Three Amigos held on for one more year (I say that even though I was yelling as much as anyone to put it together) or TG was ousted last year. I am sure that is what is going through Kevin Kalkhoven's head right now. I am also sure you would have heard some choice comments by Paul Newman if he had lived to see this happen. You got that 'I told you so' look on your face right now, don'cha Paul?

What is certain in the short term is that now, the IRL will have to find a way to stand on its own two feet. That will be difficult in this economy. The league will still benefit from revenue from race events, that won't stop, but IMS will not catch should it begin to fall. Who out there can come in and right the ship on a better course?

Humpy Wheeler? Hmmm, could be, as promoter. Wait and see.

NASCAR? Hell no. It got what it wanted from the open wheel war, which is now synonym status with the term "racing" here in the USA. Besides, they have an open wheel division, called the Whelen Modified Tour (great racing, the best at any track they go to), and NASCAR pays scant attention to them.
By the way, NASCAR didn't buy Grand Am, NASCAR's Jim France created it with some help from Penske and others.

Roger Penske? Wow, after his helping to form CART in 1979, after very partisan comments at the time the split began, then being drawn back to the irresistable lure of the Indy 500, and full time in the IRL in 2003, and now to take back the series and rebuild it? Wouldn't that be ironic. He could do it, and he certainly has the contacts to bring in a title sponsor which the series desperately needs, but he's got his hands full after the recent aquisition of Saturn from GM. Though he might if he could buy the IRL at a firesale price should the league tumble.

Well, to Our Good Friend Tony George, I can say only this, as I said in another thread. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. In 2008, you got it. Now you left it, with some help from your sisters.

Was it worth it?

Chap, don't know any more details than appear in the news release. It APPEARS that they have gone to dual managements in each case -- Belskus for the bucks and Chitwood for the operation at IMS and Angstadt for the bucks and Barnhart for the operation at IRL, all answerable to the board of which TG is a member.

Then again, some of it may be TG's decision -- 19 years, 12 of them in a split, the split's fixed, he's content to run his race team. If I had his money, I'd want to go fishin', too, when I wanted to.

I might add that it's not too different from when Bill France Jr. ran NASCAR. Most of the time, the NASCAR administrative staff stayed home and Bill Gazaway was boss of the race track.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Chap, don't know any more details than appear in the news release. It APPEARS that they have gone to dual managements in each case -- Belskus for the bucks and Chitwood for the operation at IMS and Angstadt for the bucks and Barnhart for the operation at IRL, all answerable to the board of which TG is a member.

Then again, some of it may be TG's decision -- 19 years, 12 of them in a split, the split's fixed, he's content to run his race team. If I had his money, I'd want to go fishin', too, when I wanted to.

---

OK, that certainly seems to be the consensus, based on reports from the Indy Star, ESPN.com, Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com, and Motorsport.com. Although I am a little perplexed why he left the CEO position at the IRL. My impression is we haven't seen the last chapter in this, maybe more will become clear by the time of the Brickyard 400. Tony George also has yet to, as he promised, present his own statement about the transition, which he said he will do next week. Look forward to hearing from you when that happens, IC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

I might add that it's not too different from when Bill France Jr. ran NASCAR. Most of the time, the NASCAR administrative staff stayed home and Bill Gazaway was boss of the race track.

---

Don't forget, that until Big Bill finally died, and racing rags in the day made this point, Bill Sr. was still the ONE person truly running NASCAR, no matter who had what title.
NOTHING happened without his OK.

True, but Gazaway lasted into the France Jr. regime. And yes, Chap, we'll probably see more when TG talks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

True, but Gazaway lasted into the France Jr. regime.

---

Praise the Lord!

Robin was right on the money. Robin's assessment of Tony in his latest column (basically retelling the story of how CART and Tony danced around each other as he formed the IRL with lots of money and no know how)is also dead on the money. I still feel no pleasure though in the outcome.

The Sisters wanted him not to do this in 95. I wish like hell Mari Hulman listened to the girls.

He is gone however, and that is good in the sense a new direction and face can be put on the series, bad in that the money flow will be stopped or at least slowed at a critical time.

All of this speculation comes back to the Indy 500. Does Mari Hulman want to change the 500 or possibly risk killing it? No one will enter the 500 based on the money and purse for that one race if they have no series to offset costs and provide value for sponsors year round. It is not viable for a Roger Penske to put a team together with the money and infrastructure to win this one race if he cant offset it with a whole series.

So therefore, if the IRL dies, the Indy 500 will die, or have to radically change formula. Does Mari want Silver Crown cars at the speedway? I have no idea what she is thinking, but by being the deciding factor on that board, she allowed Tony to do what she did, and she was the one who finally caved in to the sisters and put a stop to it in the end.

This is interesting times, and Mari Hulman may be the one person who may decide the fate of the IRL in the end. Not much has been said about that, but I suspect it will be. What worries me, is Mari let Tony spend 700 million dollars on a Quixote like pursuit of mediocrity.......THAT sort of judgement is scary.

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

---

robin is famous for 'figures'..

but make no mistake...TG stated flatly.....the IRL has never turned a profit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

---

IC...does it make the story any more palatable to you if the Hulmans lost 600 million? REALLY? Splitting hairs wont change the fact that Miller had the meat and potatoes of the story right on and all the Miller haters said he was creating a S*#$Storm where it wasn't warranted. Turns out he had Tony being booted off the leadership position he had at the Speedway and that the family was tired of backing his projects. Whether it was 600 or 700 million dollars is of no interest except to the sisters, who likely were the source of Miller's story.

The fact is, Tony spent a lot of money winning a war for an entity that he devalued greatly winning.....and as it turns out, the sisters are not happy about it.

When Tony himself admits he made a big mistake, maybe then some his worshipers will find that his motives for starting the series were not what he claimed in the first place.

Why defend that barely educated brat anyway?

As I said, I didn't refer to any part of anyone else's post, I only indicated Robin played fast and loose with numbers.

Robin and many others go on and on about how much was spent. As many forget, they do have revenue coming in. The Hulman-George family has NOT lost $600-700 million. They have lost $$ (per TG himself), but not the full amount.

Remember the IRL has had TV revenue since day one, along with series sponsors, title sponsors, sanctioning fees, advertising $$ etc etc. This adds up over the years too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by methanolHuffer

When Tony himself admits he made a big mistake, maybe then some his worshipers will find that his motives for starting the series were not what he claimed in the first place.

Why defend that barely educated brat anyway?

---

Some people for what ever reason try to blame T. George for destroying open wheel racing; I do blame him for making himself look like a hypocrite and destroying his own series while crapping on the peopel he SAID he created it for.
For THAT there is NO excuse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

---

IC, I'm trying to see what you're referring to but I can't find it. I went back and looked at Robin Miller's articles on SPEEDTV.com, including "IMS CEO Change" and "Tough Week at 16th & Georgetown" and both times he quoted an estimated $600 million figure. Another 100 million bucks is a lot of coin, but in the light of hundreds of millions, that's not a huge gap. Besides, Miller said "estimated", so he wasn't casting the figure in granite. Having said all that, I would still say that saying Miller is playing fast and loose with the numbers is a bit harsh. In light of the fact that he nailed this story of George being shown the door almost a month before IMS finally owned up to it, all the while getting beat up by cynics in and out of the media and here on the forums, as he has nailed other high profile stories in open wheel in recent years, I think Robin Miller is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

Chap, I'm not referring to the rest of Robin's story, which certainly scooped the world. But he referred to $600m very recently in a piece and it became $700m in the last one. If you put together all the different attendance figures he's used for races at Phoenix, you'd find a wide gap, depending on how badly he wanted to make his point.

I knew it was just a matter of time until pheonix attendance got tossed put there ....

So predictable ic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Chap, I'm not referring to the rest of Robin's story, which certainly scooped the world. But he referred to $600m very recently in a piece and it became $700m in the last one. If you put together all the different attendance figures he's used for races at Phoenix, you'd find a wide gap, depending on how badly he wanted to make his point.

---

This is not like you to split hairs. Albeit a 100 million dollar one! Regardless, Robin Miller got it right at the macro level.

The bottom line, as I see it, is this series had a better than 50% chance of folding. This could be the sinking of the unsinkable, the IMS.

I fear F1 is heading for the same fate.

I knew it was just a matter of time until pheonix attendance got tossed out there ....

So predictable ic

Fwiw..... I'm hearing the 700mil # is coming from the original 'leaker'....
And is the number that flying around the room in the post 500 board meeting initially referenced in robins original article

Blancvino, Ken , who knows about private company accounting? Sure, Robin is, as you said "macro," correct and was ahead of everybody on the story. I agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

IC...does it make the story any more palatable to you if the Hulmans lost 600 million? REALLY? Splitting hairs wont change the fact that Miller had the meat and potatoes of the story right on and all the Miller haters said he was creating a S*#$Storm where it wasn't warranted. Turns out he had Tony being booted off the leadership position he had at the Speedway and that the family was tired of backing his projects. Whether it was 600 or 700 million dollars is of no interest except to the sisters, who likely were the source of Miller's story.

The fact is, Tony spent a lot of money winning a war for an entity that he devalued greatly winning.....and as it turns out, the sisters are not happy about it.

---

I would say he won the battle but never won the war. The war still goes on and he is now out of the picture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Chap, I'm not referring to the rest of Robin's story, which certainly scooped the world. But he referred to $600m very recently in a piece and it became $700m in the last one. If you put together all the different attendance figures he's used for races at Phoenix, you'd find a wide gap, depending on how badly he wanted to make his point.

---

IC, I'm not doubting you per se, I'm just trying the article you're referring to. If you could send a link, that would be great. The articles I saw only quoted the $600 million figure, but again, whether 600 or 700, he is saying he is calling them estimates, which he is free to update when he gets new information.

BTW, IC, I'm going to Columbus, Ohio for my cousin's wedding,and I'm trying to fit in a trip to Indy. If I make it, I might meet you at New Castle Motorsports Park for Karting. :D

Chap, will it be new information or Robin just stepping it up?

At least, from this discussion, we know from where it started.

I live on the west side of Indy but can make it to New Castle. PM me and I'll see if I can make it.

Why just step it up just $100 million, why 300 or 400? Like I said, at this point, I think you'd have to give RM the benefit of the doubt that he is trying to be accurate. RM is not afraid to take on the most controversial stories, so it's important to be accurate, since the story, if true, will have to stand the test of time; and his reputation, which he guards jealously like all reporters with any integrity, would take a huge hit if is inaccurate. Notice that IMS is only not responding to those fugures, but I haven't seen where they have denied them. Again, if you have a link to the SPEEDTV.com article that I may have missed, please send link. The most recents he wrote that I saw only him quote the $600 million figure.

If I'm able to make to Indy, I'll let you know.

And remember, RM said estimates. That means he's trying to be accurate based on the info he was able to confirm.

Second page of July 2 column:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...eorge-era//P2/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Second page of July 2 column:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...eorge-era//P2/

---

OK, thanks for sending that, IC, I don't know why I couldn't find it. Like I said, I didn't doubt he wrote that, but this still doesn't strike me as playing fast and loose with numbers. He's still in the ballpark of his original figure, he may have updated info, hell, it could have been a typo on the SPEEDTV.com end. I have noticed that sometimes the site mashes words together along with other small mistakes. I still maintain that RM retains his integrity and deserves the benefit of the doubt, this isn't that big a deal. Tune in to Wind Tunnel on Sunday (where he is almost certain to be a guest) and see what he says, and if he says $700 million, see how he explains it. Not to be repetitive, but as long as he says "estimated", he's not obligated to cast the figure in granite, it's based on the latest information he was getting from his inside sources.

Ken instantly mentioned that I brought up the Phoenix attendance figures Robin used in various stories and it was something like 8-10 different ones. He worked for CART at the time. He's back to being a journalist now. But the very point Ken made about me jumping on RM's attendance figures at Phoenix indicates others have memories of before, too. And again, I give him credit for the "scoop" and I trust what I presume to be his sources, although at least some could be second hand.