It's time to screw Russia over

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26th August 2008, 17:08
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Russia has just recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, thus completing what the West started in Kosovo: destroying the world order that had existed since WWII. Hold tight guys, we are in for a big turmoil.

This could get nasty!

Anyone has knowledge of a vacant place in a scientific expedition to the South Pole, for a few years at least?! I'll be happy to join. :D
26th August 2008, 17:14
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by janneppi

All it takes is a bit ethnic prejudice and a charismatic nutcase and things go to the toilet in five years. :)

You're very optimistic, sometimes a few months are more than enough.
26th August 2008, 19:15
BDunnell

The sad thing about this is that Russia presents little military threat, except to smaller countries with small armed forces — such as Georgia. Putin and Medvedev's appeal is based largely on making the Russian public think that their nation is a great power again. By managing to run riot through Georgia in this way, Russia's leaders have done something that appeals to their electoral base, providing them with more justification for anti-Western rhetoric which also goes down well — and all this based on what is in effect a lie, namely that Russia's forces are powerful and well-equipped. In the same way, without doing anything to really justify it, Russia has made the West look weak and, with particular reference to Iraq, hypocritical.
26th August 2008, 21:01
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Russia has made the West look weak and, with particular reference to Iraq, hypocritical.

Not to mention Kosovo. If the "West" can recognize Kosovo's independence, why couldn't Russia recognize independence of Southern Ossetia and Abhasia?
26th August 2008, 21:10
Daniel

Two wrongs don't make a right.
27th August 2008, 07:18
F1boat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

Not to mention Kosovo. If the "West" can recognize Kosovo's independence, why couldn't Russia recognize independence of Southern Ossetia and Abhasia?

I agree. I don't like Russia, but if Ossetians and Abhazians do not like to live with the Georgians, they have the right to be independent.
27th August 2008, 07:58
Rudy Tamasz

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1boat

I agree. I don't like Russia, but if Ossetians and Abhazians do not like to live with the Georgians, they have the right to be independent.

And that's exactly what every bearded guerilla in the jungle or in the mountains thinks with an AK in his hand: Hell, now I can do this!

I really have a sympathy for smaller peoples who unsuccessfully tried to establish an independent state for centuries, but if everybody declares independence that will really upset the apple cart.
27th August 2008, 08:26
leopard

I think they have their own reasons why would Ossetians and Abkhazians do not like to live with the Georgians. If the independence was promoted by reasons of they are historically different and logically acceptable, then they deserve of it. What was their fault so that we do not like certain people, Russians or anything else?
27th August 2008, 10:05
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

And that's exactly what every bearded guerilla in the jungle or in the mountains thinks with an AK in his hand: Hell, now I can do this!

I really have a sympathy for smaller peoples who unsuccessfully tried to establish an independent state for centuries, but if everybody declares independence that will really upset the apple cart.

:up:

And a lot of the time there is little reason to call for independence. If your country is seriously oppressed or had a long tradition of independence interrupted forcibly, for instance, then fine.
27th August 2008, 13:16
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

To be honest, I think you are thinking the same way most West European politicians think, you, and implicitly them, do not know what should be done. Because of the lack of knowledge and because of the fear.

I do believe that there are few real politicians in western Europe at this moment, few people of the caliber of let's say Sir Winston Churchill.

So all they do is talk without converging towards an answer. Meanwhile the Russian get more powerful by the day. In the end we will be again saved by the USA.

The politicians in western europe currently are all weak and pathetic. Someone like Reagan would be good now, but hey, we have Brown and Merkel, those 2 superb and successful leaders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

Of course I agree with this, even though I would have gotten even more extreme with actions against Russia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Those regions were not independent region that Georgia decided to take over, those are separatist regions that were not granted independence by anyone but themselves, not even by the Russians.

And there are Georgians living in those regions too, and those were under fire from the Osetian separatists.

So if we decide to put facts on the table than it's fair to put them all, not just those who support a certain POV.

And if Russia was only there for peace keeping in those 2 regions, than why did they feel the urge to go deep into Georgia, attacking and destroying the town of Gori, also attacking Tbilissi. Killing a few journalists and so on?! Do you call that peace keeping?! :rolleyes:

Good post, again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Ioan, I'm not saying Russia is the innocent party here. I'm just saying its not all poor Georgia and the baddie Russia.

They're both guilty parties, all three including the SO troops.

But I'm just looking at the facts, Georgia decided to get involved, this put 70,000 odd Russian civilians at risk, they were hardly going to let this happen without taking any action. And presumably Georgia knew this, therefore provoking the conflict.

Why have Russia gone in so deep? My understand is that they've gone into Georgia to take control of certain strategic towns (such as Tbilissi) to block off any Georgian troops entering SO from the eastern and western side.

That would make sense, but again, I stress, its highly likely they have other motives. But I'm just looking at the facts, and while Russia are not innocent, far from it, Georgia are more to blame than Russia, yet only Russia is getting the bad press.

So while I understand everyone's concerns, I'm just slightly puzzled as to why no one is laying into Georgia? I'm also slightly dismayed, as I am guessing much of this is because of the media coverage, and how unfair and biased the media is and influential on peoples opinions :(

Are you trolling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Russia today announced they're moving all combat troops from Georgia.

Georgia went in and killed civilians on the 7th of August.

I'm not saying Russia is the good guy, but I'm saying Georgia isn't the good guy either.

Surely you can see the difference in how the media is portraying Russia and Georgia?

Have you followed this topic at all, do you have any understanding of this conflict or how this came on at all?
Read some of Ioans posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Can I ask your age?

I think we all are dying to know yours too.
27th August 2008, 20:34
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Two wrongs don't make a right.

But one wrong makes a precedent that others might like to follow.
27th August 2008, 20:35
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

But one wrong makes a precedent that others might like to follow.

And after your post two wrongs STILL don't make a right!
27th August 2008, 20:41
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

And after your post two wrongs STILL don't make a right!

No, but your post causes me to post one more time. Right or wrong. It's not about right or wrong, but about who gets the last word and gets to be the "King of the Hill".
27th August 2008, 22:39
gloomyDAY

I'm laughing about this entire situation.

1) Georgia provokes Russia by combating separatists. I'm sure the Georgian's believed that America would back their cause and give them more than just humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, America is caught up in two separate wars.

2) Europe has done nothing but talk. Do European diplomats do anything besides talk? Russian's do NOT understand anything besides force. Must be unsettling knowing that a less powerful country, in terms of military and economic force, are able to bully Western Europe.

Anyone mind posting solutions? Too bad the Ruskies have nuclear weapons or else a nice little bombing run in the middle of Stalingrad would do the trick.
27th August 2008, 22:47
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Do European diplomats do anything besides talk?

What does diplomats elsewhere do then?
27th August 2008, 23:10
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

2) Europe has done nothing but talk. Do European diplomats do anything besides talk? Russian's do NOT understand anything besides force. Must be unsettling knowing that a less powerful country, in terms of military and economic force, are able to bully Western Europe.

It's always been like this. They chicken out and hope the USA comes to rescue. A few years after they just show the finger to the US and after a few more years the cycle starts again. Boring huh?
28th August 2008, 02:08
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomi

What does diplomats elsewhere do then?

Call for action.

For example, "Russia has decided to be uncooperative with our terms. Therefore, [insert consequences] will be imposed."

Also, you're a Finn! Being complacent about the Russians flying their helicopters over your border's is unbelievable. How about shooting their planes down? The Russians enter Finnish sovereign territory and all the Finn's can do is shake a finger at the Ruskies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

It's always been like this. They chicken out and hope the USA comes to rescue. A few years after they just show the finger to the US and after a few more years the cycle starts again. Boring huh?

Yes, this is more repetitive than NASCAR.

Doesn't anyone feel insecure with such a hostile nation on Europe's heels?
28th August 2008, 04:35
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Also, you're a Finn! Being complacent about the Russians flying their helicopters over your border's is unbelievable. How about shooting their planes down? The Russians enter Finnish sovereign territory and all the Finn's can do is shake a finger at the Ruskies.

Lol, well a civiliced country dont shoot down foreign planes that for short moments are on the wrong side of the border, they only are reported and dealt in other ways in 99% of the countries in the world.
28th August 2008, 05:22
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Must be unsettling knowing that a less powerful country, in terms of military and economic force, are able to bully Western Europe.

As far as I know, Georgia is not in Western Europe, and Russia has done nothing to Western Europe.
28th August 2008, 06:00
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomi

Lol, well a civiliced country dont shoot down foreign planes that for short moments are on the wrong side of the border, they only are reported and dealt in other ways in 99% of the countries in the world.

These may seem as meaningless encroachments, but over time just gives Russia more time to build confidence and assert its power. A civilized nation defends its people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

As far as I know, Georgia is not in Western Europe, and Russia has done nothing to Western Europe.

I never mentioned that Georgia is part of Western Europe. I did mention that Russia is on your heels! Russia can direct that force onto countries a stones throw away from Georgia.

How can you say Russia has done nothing to Western Europe? The Ruskies are holding Western Europe hostage with their barrels of oil. Cut that bargaining chip immediately and watch them fall.
28th August 2008, 06:08
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

A civilized nation defends its people..

I dont recall that we should have been attaced in long time, btw how many us planes has Mexico shot down because of same reasons, or even reported?
28th August 2008, 06:21
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomi

I dont recall that we should have been attaced in long time, btw how many us planes has Mexico shot down because of same reasons, or even reported?

I shudder at the thought of a Mexican combat helicopter crossing into the American border. The end result probably wouldn't be delightful. There hasn't been any incidents reported about American planes straying into Mexican airspace either.

Most air traffic is civilian. Also, the American and Mexican government have been known to share tactical information, via air reconnaisance, to tackle drug problems.
28th August 2008, 06:48
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I shudder at the thought of a Mexican combat helicopter crossing into the American border. The end result probably wouldn't be delightful. There hasn't been any incidents reported about American planes straying into Mexican airspace either.

Most air traffic is civilian. Also, the American and Mexican government have been known to share tactical information, via air reconnaisance, to tackle drug problems.

Here those happens usually in the Finnish gulf, where the airspace is very narrow, I think they cross often the Estonian airspace as well, but as I said earlier its common everywhere where the airspace is narrow, everyone does just not report the issues, but handle it the diplomatic way or have somekind of agreements, I dont think the Finnish people loose their sleep because of thiskind of things.
28th August 2008, 07:11
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomi

Here those happens usually in the Finnish gulf, where the airspace is very narrow, I think they cross often the Estonian airspace as well, but as I said earlier its common everywhere where the airspace is narrow, everyone does just not report the issues, but handle it the diplomatic way or have somekind of agreements, I dont think the Finnish people loose their sleep because of thiskind of things.

You're not understanding my point. Russia has recently cultivated enough power to have a few bargaining chips in the world. After going bankrupt, being humiliated and ransacked of its former nations that made up the Warsaw Pact, the Russians now feel obliged to stop the push of the West into Russia. Where is the initial resistance? Georgia.

Georgia is a nation that decided to stop separatists. Russia tried to do the same with Chechnya (yes, the irony). Now read this part of my argument very carefully: Georgia is a nation that is completely democratic and was within its own right to reclaim land it rightfully owns. No one should have played a role in this besides the unlawful separatists and the Georgian government. Russia overstepped its bounds by using military force to subjugate a neighboring nation for its own gain.

How does this relate to you? Well Finland and other Nordic nations are going to begin competing for oil resources against Russia (maybe this can make you lose some sleep). This means that tension may rise significantly in the near future. Therefore, putting on a strong face now may inhibit the Russians from further expansion of their little game of roulette.
28th August 2008, 07:12
gadjo_dilo

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

It's always been like this. They chicken out and hope the USA comes to rescue. A few years after they just show the finger to the US and after a few more years the cycle starts again. Boring huh?

Always, always, always....However Europe has a bit of history while USA is quite "young". On the other hand USA never come to rescue, they just follow their political and economic interests like any other powerful country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDay

Being complacent about the Russians flying their helicopters over your border's is unbelievable. How about shooting their planes down? The Russians enter Finnish sovereign territory and all the Finn's can do is shake a finger at the Ruskies.

Those who had the bad luck to share a border with russians use to be wise enough to avoid them. Even when they are "invited " they forget to leave ( see the Afghanistan episode ) :laugh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDay

How can you say Russia has done nothing to Western Europe? The Ruskies are holding Western Europe hostage with their barrels of oil. Cut that bargaining chip immediately and watch them fall..

Ha! That's what every normal country does on a free market economy. Aren't also a lot of undeveloped countries financially and economic dependant on western economies? What is Russia supposed to do? Ignore its main resource and do humanitarian acts? Like :come on, Europe, we have plenty of gas and it's for free!
28th August 2008, 07:26
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Ha! That's what every normal country does on a free market economy. Aren't also a lot of undeveloped countries financially and economic dependant on western economies? What is Russia supposed to do? Ignore its main resource and do humanitarian acts? Like :come on, Europe, we have plenty of gas and it's for free!

This is probably the reason why America went to war with Iraq. OPEC is a cartel that would just choke the United States out of its oil resources, so America just went out of its way to find some sludge. Was it unjust? Sure. Was it strategically beneficial to the sustenance of the American economy? Yes!
28th August 2008, 07:32
Camelopard

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Was it unjust? Sure. Was it strategically beneficial to the sustenance of the American economy? Yes!

Try telling that to the families and the loved ones of the 4,000 plus US servicemen killed, not to mention those that have been injured. :mad:

But hey, anything that makes the value of my Halliburton shares increase is good news to me. :rolleyes:
28th August 2008, 07:39
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camelopard

Try telling that to the families and the loved ones of the 4,000 plus US servicemen killed, not to mention those that have been injured. :mad:

But hey, anything that makes the value of my Halliburton shares increase is good news to me. :rolleyes:

Tough pill to swallow.

This why America is such a juggernaut. Callousness is an advantage.
28th August 2008, 07:46
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

How does this relate to you? Well Finland and other Nordic nations are going to begin competing for oil resources against Russia (maybe this can make you lose some sleep). This means that tension may rise significantly in the near future. Therefore, putting on a strong face now may inhibit the Russians from further expansion of their little game of roulette.

Well, I belive we buy our oil just like before, just like most of the countries have to do, but I agree the tension will rise atleast for awhile.
What comes to Georgias democracy, I think we soon will see how it works, if it works, I think everyone can agree that Saakhasvili did a major missjudgement, that took his country in big problems, wonder what the opposition has to say about that.
Im more worried about some of theese former east-european EU member countries going behind EU's back to seek personal revenge by hinder desition making, and by that way making EU a hostage, there has been signs of that already.
28th August 2008, 07:50
Camelopard

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

This why America is such a juggernaut. Callousness is an advantage.

Yep, your economy is a real juggernaut at the moment, going backwards :) . How many more banks will be bailed out by the federal reserve? How does that work in a capitalist free market society?
Sounds namby pamby leftest talk to me, should just let them die after all it is a business for them and if they make bad loans, tough titties?

What's the US current account deficit at the moment? How many more companies moving the labour intensive factories to Mexico? How's your balance of payments with the PRC at the moment, need I go on?
28th August 2008, 07:52
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomi

Well, I belive we buy our oil just like before, just like most of the countries have to do, but I agree the tension will rise atleast for awhile.
What comes to Georgias democracy, I think we soon will see how it works, if it works, I think everyone can agree that Saakhasvili did a major missjudgement, that took his country in big problems, wonder what the opposition has to say about that.
Im more worried about some of theese former east-european EU member countries going behind EU's back to seek personal revenge by hinder desition making, and by that way making EU a hostage, there has been signs of that already.

Saakashvili, oh what an idiot. He really did make a mess out of this entire situation. As I stated before, Georgia probably thought that America would be there to help against any Russian resistance. Fortunately, I think we have hit rock bottom. We can only go up from here as countries realize the importance of a peaceful region in the Caucasus.

Can you present an example of EU member stalling legislation?
28th August 2008, 07:58
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

[I]Can you present an example of EU member stalling legislation?

Poland, in the EU-Russian WTO negotiations.
28th August 2008, 07:58
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camelopard

Yep, your economy is a real juggernaut at the moment, going backwards :) . How many more banks will be bailed out by the federal reserve? How does that work in a capitalist free market society?
Sounds namby pamby leftest talk to me, should just let them die after all it is a business for them and if they make bad loans, tough titties?

What's the US current account deficit at the moment? How many more companies moving the labour intensive factories to Mexico? How's your balance of payments with the PRC at the moment, need I go on?

Go ahead. Keep on talking.

The ramifications of a poor America will be seen the world over. Most nations currency is based on the U.S. dollar, therefore, it would be in everyone's interest for America to prosper.

1) American economy going backwards? No, there is still growth. America is fighting inflation and that is an issue non-unique to the States.

2) Banks need to be bailed out because so much capital is invested within those companies. Fannie and Fred owe Americans for their spare chance, but if those companies tanked trillions of dollars in assets would have gone down with them. These economic occurrences happen! Prosperity cannot be met without hurdles along the way.

3) I typically chuckle at the argument with the PRC. Where would China be without America? Digging trash out of wheelie bins. America's capital runs the nation of China and expect those deficits to erode over time.
28th August 2008, 08:02
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomi

Poland, in the EU-Russian WTO negotiations.

You really think that comes down to vendetta? I thought they had a reasonable argument. No one wants to be blackmailed nor stand up against a resurgence of an Eastern European bloc.
28th August 2008, 08:58
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I never mentioned that Georgia is part of Western Europe. I did mention that Russia is on your heels! Russia can direct that force onto countries a stones throw away from Georgia.

If they had a reason. Currently they don't have. As long as Western Europe keeps on buying their oil, it's more use for them to have peace with Western Europe.
28th August 2008, 08:59
gadjo_dilo

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

This is probably the reason why America went to war with Iraq. OPEC is a cartel that would just choke the United States out of its oil resources, so America just went out of its way to find some sludge. Was it unjust? Sure. Was it strategically beneficial to the sustenance of the American economy? Yes!

Oh really? Do you mean that all that " war against terrorism " was only dust in our eyes? :laugh:

Anyway, intersesting questions, cynical answers. It's still one more question that you omitted: If the reason is the one you mentioned was it fair to imply so many other countries in a war for US's own interests? If your answer will be again "Yes", then I want to know why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

This why America is such a juggernaut. Callousness is an advantage!

This is why more and more people have an antiamerican attitude.
28th August 2008, 09:01
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eki

If they had a reason. Currently they don't have. As long as Western Europe keeps on buying their oil, it's more use for them to have peace with Western Europe.

The other forum Finn's didn't seem to think all was good as long as Russia was at war with Finland or someone else.
28th August 2008, 12:09
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Call for action.

For example, "Russia has decided to be uncooperative with our terms. Therefore, [insert consequences] will be imposed."

Also, you're a Finn! Being complacent about the Russians flying their helicopters over your border's is unbelievable. How about shooting their planes down? The Russians enter Finnish sovereign territory and all the Finn's can do is shake a finger at the Ruskies.

Yes, this is more repetitive than NASCAR.

Doesn't anyone feel insecure with such a hostile nation on Europe's heels?

Western European countries never had direct rough contact with the Russians (excepting eastern Germans), they know that there is a buffer between them and the reds, so they try to do what is better for their economies at this moment, i.e. nothing.

Who care is Russia will disrupt Ukraine or Moldavia, Lithuania, Estonia or even Poland? As long as they don't show up on Germany's or France's door step these won't budge at all.

Finland is living 100% on Russian gas, so they won't say anything either.
28th August 2008, 12:12
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

This is why more and more people have an antiamerican attitude.

And I call those people idiots and invite them to move to Russia, cause with such a stupid attitude they will be living in Russia soon enough anyway.
28th August 2008, 12:52
gadjo_dilo

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

And I call those people idiots and invite them to move to Russia, cause with such a stupid attitude they will be living in Russia soon enough anyway.

Well, I reckon some people of the forum could be ofended but at the end of the day who cares of your opinion? :laugh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Who care is Russia will disrupt Ukraine or Moldavia, Lithuania, Estonia or even Poland? As long as they don't show up on Germany's or France's door step these won't budge at all..

There's no need to come at their door step. They MUST care if Russia disrupt Lithuania, Estonia or Poland. They have a thing in common:are NATO members. But I admit nobody will care about " our brothers across the Prut ".

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