The 2009 IndyCar Series schedule:

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Originally Posted by Starter

CART controlled the (viable) road tracks. TG had no where else to go for venues, teams and drivers. I'm not making any point here about who may or may not have been right or wrong. It was about control - on both sides. Apparantly no one had told the CART Board or TG about the history with geese and golden eggs.

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You're telling me the reason the IRL didn't add road/street circuits sooner is that there weren't any to be had? And this is at the same time the IRL is running at any oval they can get a date, regardless of whether a crowd showed up or not? Horse pucky. The IRL was trying to create a product that was different than CART. They only started to add the road/street circuits when it became apparent there was no other option. They had to go for the jugular (CC's territory) at that point.

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Originally Posted by Ken

one of the funniest posts ever written on this or any other forum..

way to go DD...thanks for the chuckle

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Glad I could humor you. Now what part of my post do you disagree with?

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Originally Posted by Starter

CART controlled the (viable) road tracks. TG had no where else to go for venues, teams and drivers. I'm not making any point here about who may or may not have been right or wrong. It was about control - on both sides. Apparantly no one had told the CART Board or TG about the history with geese and golden eggs.

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No, CART did not have control over the road tracks, what they had was the contract, it was really a battle over the share of market. IRL had more chances staying on the oval so they didn't go over the border to compete with a much more competitive CART road course product, and when CART declined, they took their chances.

The IRL's first two road courses were Infineon and Watkins Glen, two tracks over which CART had no control and did not run, its brief history at The Glen in the early '80s not withstanding.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Glad I could humor you. Now what part of my post do you disagree with?

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you know d...i could spell it out r.... e..... a ..... l..... s ...... l ..... o .... w ..and I still don't think you would get it..

but have faith...it's comedy

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Originally Posted by Cart750hp

I don't know what you're talking about and I bet no matter what Gurney or Miatanut says, TG will eventually look out for his own interests.

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That was a joke, right?

Just in case it wasn't: http://www.allamericanracers.com/cart_white-paper.html

Reading it, you will see that things have come back to the way they were 30 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Starter

The split had nothing to do with oval racing vs road racing. It was totally, completley, about who would control AOWR.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

In your opinion. It that were the case why did the IRL offer a product that was so completely different that CART for the first 8 or 9 years? 100% ovals vs a street/road mix? It was only when it became apparent to absolutely everyone (except KK, JF & the CW crowd) that there was not enough fans, sponsors, teams or drivers for two OW series did the IRL start to add road/street circuits.

Yes, in the end it became about power because there could be only one (series). BIMO, it didn't start off that way.

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Oh please. I am sure even "King" George would agree that it was about who would control AOWR. He said as much, when the IRL was formed. He openly disagreed with the direction CART was headed in, because he felt that direction was detrimental to the 500 and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. (I disagree with that premise, but...) He wanted to influence that direction. Since he was not able to influence CART, which was controlled by the teams, his options were limited. If he wanted to exert influence, he felt he pretty much had to start a new series. I think he knew that there was only room all along for one series. I think we all knew that. I think to quickly grab a portion of that single pool of sponsors, fans, teams etc. a way to differentiate his series had to be found.

Gary

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

You're telling me the reason the IRL didn't add road/street circuits sooner is that there weren't any to be had? And this is at the same time the IRL is running at any oval they can get a date, regardless of whether a crowd showed up or not? Horse pucky. The IRL was trying to create a product that was different than CART. They only started to add the road/street circuits when it became apparent there was no other option. They had to go for the jugular (CC's territory) at that point.

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What a load of trollup. TG did everything he could to undermine CART and ChampCar. It had nothing to do with which series was stronger or weaker and more to do with attracting a fan base.

When Toyota left, TG had to reach deep into his bag of tricks. Especially when CC dropped its last oval race. It was becoming increasingly clear, TG's plan for an Indy centric oval centric motor racing business model was failing. Red Buls departure and switch to CC was the awakening TG needed.

At least CC made the right moves with Atlantics and the DP01. We still have to watch those ugly Dallara's for two more years.

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

And as far as the DP-01 goes, the spending of cubic dollars on that may well have been the final nail in CC's continuance.

Any denial that this was an out and out power struggle from day one is pretty unrealistic....

There are many reasons that the IRL started with all ovals - but I do not think any of the major reasons had to do with some philosophical preference for ovals... TG simply used the circle track contingent to start building his power base. He built a coalition of fellow CART detractors and very cannily crafted the IRL in a way to garner their support of what he correctly perceived to be the most vocal of the detractors - the circle track guys....

Face it, if he had said that he just wanted control of the sport because he wanted it, nobody would have supported him - he had to make people believe he was doing it for them.....

This was a very shrewd political move from a guy who is probably not as dumb as we like to believe....

I think it is interesting that he, in-turn, tried to bring the even shrewder France family into the coalition by combining the circle track open wheelers with the circle track tin-toppers - that is where he overstepped his abilities and let the proverbial fox into the hen house to really devastate AOWR. I suspect if ISC had never been a part of his coalition that there was a stronger possibility for both series to survive (although maybe no thrive) on divergent paths.....

Interestingly, now that the economic outlook is somewhat dimmer - the IRL is actually in a better position to grow than NASCAR - will be interesting to see how it plays out....

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Originally Posted by indycool

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

And as far as the DP-01 goes, the spending of cubic dollars on that may well have been the final nail in CC's continuance.

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once the "war" was on what was CART to do? Even though CART's own stupidity and short-sightedness was a large contributory factor to the beginning of this "war" - there is little doubt that TG was the initial aggressor and the formation of the IRL was his opening attack....

I think you are right about the DP-01 - in hindsight, CCWS was in no position to do that car, it was a fools errand. Given that history lesson, as much as I would like to see a new Indycar ASAP - the IRL needs to get their house in order before they drop the $$ on a new car....

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Originally Posted by indycool

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

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Yes, CART fought back. But what would you do when the traditions of Indy were thrown out in all out declaration of war on your series?

In hindsight, CART should have taken the battle to the place that started it, Indy. They would have done much more damage to the break away series by drinking their milk and placing their Indy 500 on the CART schedule.

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Originally Posted by indycool

And CART did nothing to undermine the IRL and the "500?" It usually takes at least two people to have a fight.

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No one is suggesting they didn't. The point downtowndeco made was that the IRL was not created to wrangle control of AOWR. That is just pure BS.

Gary

Whatever.......the idea that one played fair and one didn't is an idea I won't buy.

But I agree that CART could've stopped the IRL right in its tracks by running Disney World and Phoenix in 1996, going to Indy as part of the 25, taking most of the prize money and running the IRL's smaller teams out of the sport.

Gary, pits4, by omission, suggested it above.

In any case, none of it applies now.

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

Yes, CART fought back. But what would you do when the traditions of Indy were thrown out in all out declaration of war on your series?

In hindsight, CART should have taken the battle to the place that started it, Indy. They would have done much more damage to the break away series by drinking their milk and placing their Indy 500 on the CART schedule.

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Fought back? That implies that they waited until the IRL was formed. I think the war started before that, back when "King" George demanded a seat on the CART board. I think CART started pushing back then, if not before.

Gary

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Originally Posted by indycool

Whatever.......the idea that one played fair and one didn't is an idea I won't buy.

But I agree that CART could've stopped the IRL right in its tracks by running Disney World and Phoenix in 1996, going to Indy as part of the 25, taking most of the prize money and running the IRL's smaller teams out of the sport.

In any case, none of it applies now.

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Nor will I buy into that idea that either side played "fair". And yep, tis all water over the proverbial dam.

Gary