Ah yes, but Rome wasn't built in a day :) I'm sure Heikki will come good.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Printable View
Ah yes, but Rome wasn't built in a day :) I'm sure Heikki will come good.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Sorry fella but you've given us third-hand information with no way of backing it up. This comment was apparently on Finnish TV yet it's not appeared on YouTube, no other news organisation has reported it, nobody else on any other F1 website or forum has mentioned it, and even Heikki himself has said nothing of the sort since.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
If you don't understand why I'm sceptical then there's really no getting through to you.
Here is a link if you understand finnish . ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/urheilu/?...9,1:0:0:0:0:0:
Well, I can help. This text from that article:
"Kovalaiselle taistelutta antautuminen oli niin kiusallista, että kisan jälkeen kirosanat lentelivät ja mies sadatteli, ettei saanut ajaa kilpaa."
Translation:
"Surrendering without a fight was such a thing for Kovalainen that after the race he was furious and swored because he was not allowed to race (against Hamilton)."
That was immediately after the race, when he later had cooled down he admitted that Lewis was much quicker and it was right thing to do to let him pass. Heikkis problem is tires, Lewis handles them much better and doesnt have a problem at all with them. Heikki usually manages them well in qualifying but has big problems in race and cant push as hard as he would like.
Thank you. That's all I was asking for all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalafi
It seems to clarify that Kovy, when not talking in the heat of the moment, knows that it was a rational decision as he didn't have anywhere near Lewis' pace.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was more like McLaren spin doctoring. Probably told Kovy to reiterate his comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Well rather than us sitting around asking whether the pass was legal, perhaps we should ask ourselves why the stewards took no action and none of the other 9 teams raised any kind of protest.
So, you can stop ridiculing people around here now?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Is that one of those "Hypothetical" questions I've heard so much about? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Thanks for that! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalafi
Sorry for being a bit dense but what did he actually say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalafi
From what I can see, it is an opinion and not a quote.
Was Hekki actually referring to McLaren asking him to move over or that he wasn't able to race or that the car was not to his liking so he couldn't push as hard as he would like or that little green men were jumping on his nose cone or, or, or?
Surely, if thousands of Fins saw Heikki saying this, someone should be able to offer a accurate translation of what he actually said?
Teams never raise questions about team orders because they are not hypocrites, as they all use them. Something we can't say about lots of members of this forum, whom would have yelled about it day and night if it was Ferrari (and there is proof to that), but they say it was normal, because it was McLaren!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I think this is the answer to your question.
Hypocrisy at it's highest "density"! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Rather than an unfounded personal attack, try posting something of value :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
He is described as "furious" , and swearing after the race .
That would seem to indicate he was unhappy with the decision , and that would point to it not being the decision he would have preferred .
That points to an outside influence , his team , indicating that they expect him to act in a certain way .
He clearly did , and it seems his emotions were calmed once he met with his team afterwards .
That indicates to me that he was shown the data , and then understood why he was told Lewis was faster .
"Lewis is faster . Let him through ."
Tou can say the first three words , but not the second three .
It was a legal team order . How long will a driver that dis-obeys last ?
Ask Fernando . His contract at McLaren read that he would race there this year .
Stupid , stupid , stupid rule .
Which McLaren driver was in the best position to achieve the best result for the team, or did they both have a chance to win the race?
Given that Heikki was 4th after the so-called team order, and remained 5th to the end of the race, while Lewis moved up to 1st ,the answer appears obvious. Given that Heikki's fastest race lap was 0.5s slower than Lewis the answer is even more obvious.
This was not a team running 1-2 earning maximum points, regardless of which driver was ahead, ordering one driver to sacrifice his position in the interests of the other. This was a team that had one driver with the opportunity to win. Had it been the former then the FIA should have penalised McLaren. As it was the latter they rightly took no action IMHO.
Heh...you dont give up easily! :) He was angry because team "informed him that Lewis is quicker than him"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
As he said:
- Ajatukset olivat sekaisin kisan jälkeen, Kovalainen selitti purkaustaan.
free translation:
- My head was a mess after the race, Kovalainen explained his outburst
Was that good enough explanation? Heikki also has admitted that it was right thing to do to let Lewis past and he just has to sort his own problems because if he is quick enough, he can win races.
Time will tell...
If I was Hekki, I would be annoyed that I was 1/2 a second slower a lap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalafi
Heikki needs to get his head straight and work on getting the best out of the car with his engineers. I'm sure he will.
As far as team orders go, I really fail to see the issue.
When Lewis was prevented from having a go at Alonso, I thought it the right decision as they were 1 and 2. Any attempt an Monnaco with those two would have ended in disaster.
With Germany, it made sense for Heikki to be told Lewis was flying to avoid an avoidable accident. As it was, Heikki making it easy for Lewis probably changed nothing and lead to the best possible team result for McLaren.
I think we may have to agree to disagree then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The link provided gave no quote of what Heikki said, just their interpretations of his reaction. considering its regarding a Finnish driver in the Finnish press, I wouldn't really see it as an objective opinion. Its like asking the ITV-F1 crew about Hamilton - its going to be very biased!
At end of the day, we have world news, coming from different languages all around the world, if it had enough credibility, it would have made it into the British press. So I'm sorry, but I'd rather base my opinions on known facts, not tabloid Finnish papers and hear'say.
Your entitled to your opinion, as am I, I've explained myself above - please don't take offence :) .
No offence, but a couple of weeks ago and 5 months ago are very different. You really should make yourself clearer in future.Quote:
Originally Posted by mstillhere
If you could go and cut and paste info to support your claim it'd be very much appreciated :) .
From my memory Lewis has beaten Heikki more times than not, even at beginning on season. Though Heikki was definately a near match for Lewis. I don't think he had the better of him.
So any reliable sources supporting your claim much appreciated :) .
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstillhere
Erm.....hate to point it out - but its your guys arguing a case without a source.
I've got sources and actualy FACTS backing up my view of events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Erm.....I don't remember a big deal being made out of Massa letting Kimi past last year at Brazil, effectively deciding the title.
McLaren fans and majority of F1 fans made a big deal of when Ferrari had a strict No.1 policy with MS. Because it went against the very basic principles of sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Erm.....I don't remember a big deal being made out of Massa letting Kimi past last year at Brazil, effectively deciding the title.
McLaren fans and majority of F1 fans made a big deal of when Ferrari had a strict No.1 policy with MS. Because it went against the very basic principles of sport.
But if you look at since they've adopted an =1 policy, when team orders have been imposed, no one makes a fuss. Because they're done in a sporting and reasonable manner.
Nothing to do with hypocrisy, IMO, just an excuse to bash McLaren/FerrariQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Although team orders are accepted and a necessary evil, there comes a point where the implementation can cause disrepute - which is what happened in Austria 2002, no where near the halfway stage of the season. If they wanted Schumi to win then do it at the middle of the race, not at the last moment.
There comes a point during a season where its accepted for team orders just as in 1999, let alone 1979!
I understand that viewpoint, but then it can also be argued that by slowing the Number 2 down on the last corner, rather than using a shambolic running-wide scenario or straight-forwardly dishonest 'brake problem' ,shows to the world that actually he was faster and that the team-order wasn't being hidden.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
I don't think it's worth going back over "that" incident as most people see it as very different.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
I don't mind if a team release a faster driver from behind his slower team mate. If you have 2 team mates battleing, then it slows both down and makes them vulnerable from behind.
Similarly, if a driver is out of the WDC hunt and his team mate is in the hunt, I don't see it as unreasonable if the driver doesn't defend his position "too" rigorously.
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
That's a good one. The english press won't print it cause they don't know about it or don't understand it, so we call it a biased Finnish article!
I think we should only take for objective what the Spanish press says about Lewis after all the british are clearly biased and not worth reading. :rotflmao:
Yep, and they also owned up to it!Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Something Ron "integrity smug face" Dennis wouldn't do, no matter the price to pay for it.
And the McLaren fans are clearly the same, no matter what you put in front of their eyes they will quickly close them and do as nothing ever happened. Hypocrites!
PS: Just to remind everyone I'm not against team order, just against double standards and hypocrisy! :)
So ioan, when McLaren asked if a certain movable device was illegal and the FIA claimed it was, then that's one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
However, the fact that the device was actually fitted on a Ferrari which the FIA had passed lead you to claim they had done nothing wrong.
Double standards and Hypocrisy no?
In this example, the FIA monitored McLarens radio and found nothing wrong but you seem to be alluding that they have broken some rule or another with no proof apart from your blind hatred of Ron Denis?
Double standards and Hypocrisy no?
Actually, you should be congratulated because not only have you demonstrated double standards and hypocrisy by by proclaiming your stance against such traits, have superbly demonstrated the meaning or irony :laugh:
So we shift from team orders to movable devices?! So be it, however I remember from where we discussed the movable devices in depth that 99% of the forum members, you included, can't make the difference between movable and flexible!Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
bla bla bla, heiki said th eteam prevented him from racing Lewis, that's team orders. However in my previous post, the one you are quoting, I said I'm not against team orders. So I fail to see where is the hypocrisy you are talking about, or were you talking about your behavior?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Hatred towards Ron? No, I actually pity him.
I'm yet to see where I'm being hypocritical, as long as I said I'm not against team orders, but against your hypocrisy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Maybe you don't understand what the word HYPOCRISY means, in this case please do try to learn about it before accusing me, you hypocrite (just take a look at your comment re Austria 2002 and compare it to what you said in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about).
I take it you can back that up, as per your signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Oh dear, you cant. Hypocrite :laugh:
I am yet to see a transcript where Heikki says "McLaren prevented me from racing Lewis".Quote:
bla bla bla, heiki said th eteam prevented him from racing Lewis, that's team orders. However in my previous post, the one you are quoting, I said I'm not against team orders. So I fail to see where is the hypocrisy you are talking about, or were you talking about your behavior?!
If you can provide one, then fine but I don't know how Heikki could race Lewis when he was going slower? The best he could do was stop him from passing and as faster drivers like Jnr and your revered Massa couldn't what hope had Heikki of doing better?
If I remember correctly, the quote you are claiming supports your case is where Heikki allegedly says that the team told him that Lewis was faster. Even by the unsubstantiated quote you refer to, there is nothing about team orders.
Yet, you say this is team orders with no proof :laugh:
I'm afraid that I rarely understand what you're talking about.Quote:
Hatred towards Ron? No, I actually pity him.
I'm yet to see where I'm being hypocritical, as long as I said I'm not against team orders, but against your hypocrisy!
Maybe you don't understand what the word HYPOCRISY means, in this case please do try to learn about it before accusing me, you hypocrite (just take a look at your comment re Austria 2002 and compare it to what you said in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about).
I didn't agree with 2002 and nor did most people including your friend Max because a faster driver slowed to let a slower driver through.
In Germany, a slower driver got out of the way of his faster team mate who then went on to overtake 2 rivals and win the race.
This is not a difficult concept to grasp, even for yourself ioan.
Why do you think I can't? There is a complete thread about the matter, if not 2 or more! So don't make yourself look like a clown. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
There were people who posted what they found in the Finnish media, still you ignore it because it doesn't suit your biased opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
And than you say no one has proof, you clown!
That's normal, with your level. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Well, you seem to agree now, don't you see it as hypocrisy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
It was team orders, no matter how you turn it. I'm not against it, but it baffles me that you lot of McCheat fans chose to close the eyes and wash your brains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
I think I'll stop discussing any serious matters with such people as you, whom only laugh about whatever you bring to the discussion.
It's like that saying: "Don't ever argue with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level and beat you with his experience!", or something along those lines.
Ioan I suggest keeping the personal "you clown" comments to yourself. If nothing else you are hypocritical with your attacks on fellow "clown" forum members all the while ranting about not making personal attacks on fellow forum members. Act as you preach and perhaps you'll gain a little respect from your fellow forum members, or just continue down the bumpy road you already chose. It's only up to you.
Anyway back to the thread. Does anyone have any concrete (not circumstantial) evidence of team orders yet?
Comparing 2008 Germany and 2002 Austria events and saying one was right and the other wasn't, isn't quite proper IMO.
Back in 2002 the team orders were not prohibited yet and hence there was nothing illegal. Yes, it may have been unfair to Rubens to lose the win, but if Ferrari felt that they needed to give some extra points for Michael to ensure his WDC lead (by that point we had had only 6 races and everything in F1 can change quickly, his title wasn't secured by then), then it's hard to disapprove with their decision. After all, Michael made a "payback" at the end of 2002, handing Hungarian, Italian and US Grand Prix wins to Rubens, so all in all RB has gained more wins than MS with the help of team-mate!
McLaren made the right decision in Germany, especially as Heikki seems out of the championship contention anyway and it doesn't make much difference for him if he gained one point by blocking or not (if for Lewis there were more points to lose).
I don't think we should have so much discussion about this topic for some many pages here.
Well I don't think you can put huge blame on McLaren themselves, the drivers takes some blame as well. It's a bit like 1982 San Marino GP - Ferrari told the drivers to slow down, Pironi thought he was still free to race whereas Gilles thought it meant to hold station.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
DC recently mentioned he perhaps should've been more selfish in his career. He mentioned that Australian GP he could've ignored those orders and won the race himself.
No one knows the exactly how those orders should've been implemented. Whomever made the call to Heikki but there is onus on Heikki to make up his own mind on how to exactly implement those orders. IMO it looked like Heikki was quite hesitant but decided to let Lewis through at the last moment.
The person who really knows is Heikki.
I don't agree with Ioan and his hypocrisy/McLaren conspiracy theories. People have different interpretations on the implementation and you tifosi are a fickle group to deal with! :p
Someone who talks something that makes sense! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
We might be a fickle group to deal with, but we are no hypocrites and we are able to judge and criticize the ones we support.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
The day I see this from the McLaren fans is not near, not at all. There are Mc fans who, even after the team publicly acknowledged that they did something wrong last year, still say that McLaren were not guilty. And you call us difficult and fickle. :rolleyes:
Well yes, the hardcore team fans are a fickle bunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I don't know who the McLaren fans are on the forum but the Ferrari/Schumi fans are easy to spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Have either of you actually bothered to do the reasearch to back this claim up though? It should in theory be simple to find such a scandalous set of commments in the Finnish tabloids.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Except that said Finnish articles don't actually exist.
http://haku.iltasanomat.fi/haku.aspx...ikki&x=15&y=10
http://www.iltalehti.fi/haku/index.s...29lkzeata#1073
If you do a search through either Ilta-Sanomat or Iltalehti for "Hekki" and "Saskan GP" then the supposed comments still don't want to surface. The "biased" Finnish press which should be pulling for Finnish drivers in theory simply is not doing so. I therefore have no other option but to call Shenanigans on this.
SHENANIGANS! SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS
According to our board sleuths, Heikki spilled the beans. But everything was in Finnish. And we all know that there are only three people in the world who speak Finnish... so there's really no point in them posting it here. Course, I just happen to know one of the three people in the world who speaks Finnish. He's a long time forum member here (more a Kimi fan than a Heikki fan), who just doesn't happen to post here much anymore (gee, wonder why?)Quote:
Originally Posted by jjanicke
Rather than these people being vague and making it up as they go, if there is an interview with Heikki, it should be posted here.
The wording of that post doesn't make much sense to me I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
English is the international language. So all news worth mentioning and has credibility will one way or another translate over to English one way or another.
I think if Heikki had said that, an English languaged based media source would have released that - as its a pretty damning interview - according to your source with no reliable link, and a source which 99% of us can't understand :) .