Mads Ostberg

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Originally Posted by Antony Warmbold

You are right, it's been too long, here's an update

http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.f...side-note.html

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Really nice! Many thanks for all these info!

I have two questions for you:
How easy is it to add more and more info in your pace notes? By adding more details (like Loeb in your example) you must have the mental ability to analyse all that in the stage and drive accordingly. Although a more simplistic system (e.g. Petter) will allow to concentrate more on driving than analysing the pace notes.
Have you ever come across places where you wanted to add more info, but you know beforehand this is too much to process while driving in the stage? (out of curiosity, what system did you use?)

I appreciate that processing pace notes while driving is second nature to rally drivers, but I am not convinced that everyone (even among the current top drivers) can do it equally well.

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Originally Posted by Micke_VOC

I read your post regarding pacenotes..
Are you certain that Petter use minus/plus as "speed" ..
If he use the sort of system we use in Sweden/Norway a 4+ are close to a 5- ( the angle of the corner) , not the speed

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Probably due to Phil's input and origins I believe their pace notes are more "British" than Scandinavian in system, and I am sure it is based on gears (1,2,3,4,5,6).

Here you will read that Phil Mills translates a "+" as half throttle. I have also seen an interview of Phil where he explains their notes but can't seem to locate it...

http://www.crash.net/wrc/feature/112...explained.html

Hi Antony, it's a real pleasure to have you here.

I've recently had a conversation with Lundefaret about Seb Ogier's pacenote system, as he seem to also believe that a great deal of his speed and consistency has to do with the fact he has pretty advanced pacenotes (which are seemingly pretty close to Loeb's). Maybe Lundefaret could share some more advanced hindsight on this matter.

Also if I remember correctly, I heard that Thierry Neuville changed his pacenote system during his year in the Citroën Junior Team in 2012, and now also uses an "angle" based system similar to Loeb's.

I don't understand Norwegian but I'd be very interested to see how Mads' pacenotes are. It could indeed probably be one of the reasons he did not keep getting better and better like others of similar age and experience did (Neuville and Mikkelsen in mind).

Also could anyone explain the difference between Mikkelsen's and Ostberg's pacenotes if there is one?

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Originally Posted by miniwintz

Hi Antony, it's a real pleasure to have you here.

I've recently had a conversation with Lundefaret about Seb Ogier's pacenote system, as he seem to also believe that a great deal of his speed and consistency has to do with the fact he has pretty advanced pacenotes (which are seemingly pretty close to Loeb's). Maybe Lundefaret could share some more advanced hindsight on this matter.

Also if I remember correctly, I heard that Thierry Neuville changed his pacenote system during his year in the Citroën Junior Team in 2012, and now also uses an "angle" based system similar to Loeb's.

I don't understand Norwegian but I'd be very interested to see how Mads' pacenotes are. It could indeed probably be one of the reasons he did not keep getting better and better like others of similar age and experience did (Neuville and Mikkelsen in mind).

Also could anyone explain the difference between Mikkelsen's and Ostberg's pacenotes if there is one?

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Thanks it's a pleasure to provide insight and information to others who are hungry for it!

To my ears ogier's pace notes are indeed very similar to Loeb's and yes they are an "angle" base system. He also uses the distance in the corner info for example.

We could discuss Loeb's or Ogier's notes in great detail if people wish to hear more detail. I propose we find an in-car stage where we can have Ogier and somebody else and we do a direct comparison (does not have to be from same year). Lets make sure the co-driver is really well audible!

Østberg's system is a very simple 1-6 with +/- and the usual things you need to know, no meter distances to where the corner opens or tightens. They had a couple of late note accidents last year so maybe that's why they don't want more information in them.

He stopped doing rallies in Norway this year for testing apart from one event before Swedish Rally, maybe that's some of the reason why he's not finding a good rhythm with the car on stages he "doesn't know" Easier to find that good feeling with no pressure perhaps?

First: It would be absolutely great if we could discuss Ogier and Loebs notes in detail (and others notes too). I have no clue on french, but both You miniwintz, and You Warmbold have a very good grasp of it. Maybe You should start a new thread Warmbold, wich is titled somethin sexy as Analyzis of different Pace Note systems, or something like that? I would be more than welcome to shear some of what I know, and some of what we are working on to improve the Petter-and-Phill-system even further.

Second: Mads Østberg does not use the same pace note system as Petter/Phill.
He uses 1-6 as gradients of the curve of the corner (as You drive it, not how it is in reality), but this is very common in Scandinavia. Mads does not have much add ons. Only the occational "Keep in" and some others, but a much simpler system to that of Petter.
What is similar is that Mads uses "speed notes" where the angle of the steering wheel trough a corner on the racing line decides what grading it is.
The regular Scandinavian Numeric System (wich You can by ready made when You enter a rally in Norway) is a "safety note" system, and this describes the exact curve of the corner as if You would always drive in the centre of the road, and not cut etc.

The speed notes mean that You can exit a slow corner flat in second during a 6 left. So its not gear based, tough the numeric values often give an indication on wich gear the corner can be taken in.
A - (minus) is a tighter bend than a whole number, and a + (pluss) is a more open one.
So if You use plusses and minuses You have these gradings: 1-, 1, 1+, 2-, 2, 2+ etc, so now You have 18 gradings in stead of 6.
The "problem" is that a - (minus) sounds more dangerous than a + (pluss), so inexperienced drivers often drive faster in a 2+, than a 3-;)

This numeric system alows You to use markings on the steering wheel to get them correct all the time. If some of You have not seen this I can take a pictore of our recce car (but I am clueless on how to post pictures on this forum.)

Petter and Phil revolutionized this "speed note" system, and made it much more action orientated, and very focused on a precise placing of the car. Not only the placing of the car, but the placing of the weight centre of the car.
One add on I can mention is "Line", wich describes a wider line on entry and a tighter on the exit. This is to invest, often because the next corner is going in the oposite direction, so by driving in this fashion You can straigthen out several corners after, or get a very good exit out of the next one.
"Line" is graded as "Line to", "Line in to", "Long line to" "Long Line in to", and You can keep going on to "Xtra long line in to etc". This can also be used if it is a series of bends going in the same direction, with small straights connecting them, and this way You know that You will keep out in all the corners but the last one.
Petter and Phil has a lot of these nice touches.

What Phil did was help Petter develop this system, and then he developed a system for writing this down. Phils system is the fastest way to write the pace notes, because he uses a lot of symbols in stead of whole words, and each symbol have their particular placing. This means that it is also incredibly easy to read when You get the hang of it.
For me each codriver should learn to write as fast and as organized as Phil Mills.

There have been drivers that make gear notes, Markko Märtin (the first of the modern generation driver with the new driving style, and a driver that Loeb studied to learn) is one of them.

Ogier: Regarding Ogier he uses a system wich have seven gradings in stead of 6: 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140 and 150. Above 150 its only left, right etc. And he also can use plusses and minuses.
The pluss in my opinion is that it is very easy to visualize the corners when You have the gradings.
The minus is that You can confuse these numbers with distances, and thats why You have to use "metres" after all the distances.
Loeb would change this system if he started over because of this.

Can;t you just reply like you are in a forum with people who value their time and not lecturing at the university... who bothers to read all that text ???

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

But what is the solution? You can't un-invent technology. Do we give them more power and make them RWD? Encourage event organisers to stop using the same stages year on year? I won't even suggest getting rid of pace-notes....that's not going to happen.

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All very good points. I find much modern motorsport simply too fast for my taste. Might be all very well for people raised on a diet of computer games, or those for whom outright speed is everything, but it's not for me.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

Can;t you just reply like you are in a forum with people who value their time and not lecturing at the university... who bothers to read all that text ???

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People who take a genuine, as opposed to passing, interest in the subject? I for one find it fascinating. You're not in a position to lecture others on how to post.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

Can;t you just reply like you are in a forum with people who value their time and not lecturing at the university... who bothers to read all that text ???

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He he, I´m starting to like You, You are so predictable:) I had started the stop watch to see how long it would take You to reply in this matter to my longer-then-You-bother-to-read-text.
I wondered if it would take less then 10 minutes, and it did, congratulations!:)

Essential on a forum is the combination of the written word and constructive dialougue. If You cant be bothered to read, or be constructive, only comment, then I would suggest other platforms in wich to contribute Your strong opinions, like in the comments section on YouTube;)

You are obviously scared of knowledge, and learning, but dont worry. You are not alone. The Catholics used to kill all people with new insights in medicine (witches), astrology (blasfemic, saying the earth was round, and not in the centre of the universe etc), etc etc:)