Webber quits!!!!!......

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Originally Posted by henners88

No. Much like Webber now, DC and Ruben's were racing against team mates who were much more consistent and dare I say better. I don't see the point in declaring a driver is rubbish simply because he can't consistently beat a World Champion team mate. That doesn't mean they are not very good drivers who deserve credit for their success. After all this is Formula One not football.

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Absolutely. Other than that one sarcastic in reply to steveaki13. I've always said he is decent, but not as good or great as people paint him out to be.
He's just not in the same class as Vettel, Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton. Solid, if not a bit inconsistent, number #2 driver.

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

It is dismaying to read so many smug and oh so knowledgeable armchair hard men layin' down the authoritah and sinking the boot in. I can think of a few very good racers that didn't win a WDC whilst occupying a prime seat, and/or having the misfortune to come up against a prodigy in their time - go and do some research.

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So you accept he is a second rate driver when it comes to the likes of those whom I mentioned?
I agree.

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

But for some I should imagine that is a step too far, and in which case maybe a Mod should school these deluded souls from time to time... But then again, I am Australian so my opinion of a driver from my own country doesn't count it seems.

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So you don't like my opinion? Where's yours?
How about you provides a single counterpoint to anything I have said rather than attacking me?

This is a discussion forum, so why don't we discuss?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree. Such people have no historical perspective, nor an appreciation of the fact that ability cannot only be measured through statistics.

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I agree, statistics don't tell the whole story. But when someone starts using statistics, it is wrong to use the same statistics to argue a counterpoint?

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

You say "solely" but what about Horner, the engineers, Renault, the owner, the pit crews. All go towards the BEST TEAM mantel. Vettel and Webber have to do the business end and they do.

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Sarcasm. Although Newey's record speaks for itself.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

The way Webber is being attacked it sounds like he is being lowered into the car in an old peoples sling and only finds his way around a track with the assistance of a GPS and bump stops.

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I don't mean to be that harsh. I just mean he isn't up to the mark being set by other drivers. As I have always said, he is the same as DC et al. Nothing special.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

Such a terrible thing to say about RBR and the question must be asked - why do you think their charity wasn't extended to the other races in the season?

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Why is it terrible?
They repeatedly told Vettel to look after his gearbox and it apparently kept getting worse and worse. And yet at the close of the race Webber and Vettel started trading fastest laps.
Do you think if Vettel hadn't let him through, Webber would have won that race?

That's quite simple. Vettel wasn't really in a position to help Webber prior to this race, Webber was just too far behind in races to be given charity.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

As I noted earlier, Vettel is a phenomenon. Vettel is earning his achievements without a dominant car and against a rule book that is designed to combat greatness. Phenomenal.

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When didn't Vettel have the dominant car?
All I can think of is that he didn't have the fastest car for the first half of last season. In the second half he did. In 2011 the Red Bull was clearly the fastest. In 2010 without failures, he too would have run away with the championship.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

Just maybe Webber's many years of experience have contributed to Red Bull success but you haven't acknowledged that possibility. Red Bull sign him for some reason or other. What reason could they possibly have?

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That is a good question, one that even Marko doesn't have an answer to.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

In 2010 Mark made his stupid crack to the world about being the #2 driver when winning the British GP. He won the GP of Hungary a few weeks later and then won nothing until Brazil in 2011. Webber's performances have changed markedly since 2010. Someone said in another thread that Webber drives well when he's p*ssed, I would hazard a guess that the opposite might be true.

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I agree, he was a much better driver in 2010 than he has been since.

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

He has been bested but its nothing that a couple of race wins won't fix. We're only talking tenths of a second after all.

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I disagree. It is tenths of seconds that separate these drivers. And I don't think this balance will change this year either.

I sincerely hope Webber proves me wrong and throughly beats Vettel.

Oh my god, what has happened to the forum in the last few days. Since I come, here is so much activity and so many posts I can't really deepen into all of this. :D

Anyway, what to say...
Surprisingly early in the season to sign such contract, if true.

Webber doesn't seem like a driver, who would like to pursuit another midfield drive in F1, so he is looking for a new challenge.

Of course if the contract has already been signed, then the Malaysian GP can't have been the main reason, because planning for a career move and signing necessary deals takes longer than just one-two weeks. So Webber must have thought of 2013 being his last F1 season already right from the start of the season. But Malaysia may have been a catalyst, which confirmed his decision and he really signed the deal after negotiations with Porsche. Much like Barrichello felt after USA 2005 that it is time to move on from Ferrari like he later confirmed.

Webber as a driver? I think claims that he goes into the history in the same way as Patrese, Coulthard or Barrichello sound about right. But I think the lad can be happy that in the second half of his F1 career he got so many chances in excellent cars, because for many years he was stuck in midfield and it looked like he may not get his big break at all. Like seemed the case with Fisichella (and perhaps Barrichello in the 90's) for many years. And which eventually was the case with Heidfeld.

Some of his spectacular qualifying performances from Jaguar days have stuck to my mind. It is worth remembering that before teaming up with Sebastian Mark was widely regarded as one of the best qualifying drivers on the grid. And so I think for the past seasons RBR has had the best "qualifiers" line-up in F1, though the current Hamilton-Rosberg gives a strong competition on that front, especially if Nico sorts out his Q3's.

Exactly.

He is a very good driver, but happens to be team mate to a great one who has won 3 titles.

Same for Rubens he done a decent job against one of the best.

Webbers a top bloke and can be proud to be compared with DC, Rubens etc. OK, he may not be a top 3 driver but has the talent to be up pushing on merit.

Also, top 3 drivers are usually admired but disliked. Im glad Mark never lost his personality and very few people in the sport would say a word against him. That counts a lot in my book.

I assume we will have a similar thread one day about Nico.

I remember Webber in 2000 and 2001. He was slow. Maybe on Wikipedia it seems he was tallented and quick, but I remember it. The same story as this year. Great car, average driver. He didn´t move forward until today. He can´t be F1 world champion. It is technically not possible. And that is all. Nothing more to say, no more ace to play. ...Vettel takes it all. :D

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Originally Posted by liposh

I remember Webber in 2000 and 2001. He was slow. Maybe on Wikipedia it seems he was tallented and quick, but I remember it. The same story as this year. Great car, average driver. He didn´t move forward until today. He can´t be F1 world champion. It is technically not possible. And that is all. Nothing more to say, no more ace to play. ...Vettel takes it all. :D

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For the past few years we've had people discrediting Vettels achievements by saying he is only winning because he has the best car. Obviously this has been defended fiercely by Seb's fans because lets face it, you need a certain amount of talent to extract the potential out of any car and Seb has that talent.

Now we have some of us here who don't quite class Webber in the same league as Seb, but acknowledge he is a very good and fast driver, only for some of Seb's fans to say he's only got his 9 race victories because he (Webber) has the best car! :crazy: :s pin:

webber beat every teammate up until vettel. he hasn't beaten a teammate with the talent of hamilton for instance, but neither has alonso. alonso couldn't even beat trulli in 04.

the (relative) deterioration in webber's performances is due to webber declining with age, vettel getting stronger (he's only raced 5 full seasons), the pressure of senior people at red bull constantly undermining him, and having to over drive the car just to keep up with his teammate which creates errors.

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Originally Posted by Koz

I've always said he is decent, but not as good or great as people paint him out to be.
He's just not in the same class as Vettel, Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton. Solid, if not a bit inconsistent, number #2 driver.

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Having checked this thread and the others relating to Webber of late, I am yet to find anybody on this forum that has gone on the record to say Webber is 'great' and in the same talent league as Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton. Webber is at a disadvantage where age is concerned and he is in a team where the focus is very much on his younger, talented, multiple WDC team mate of course. I don't know if we've got our wires crossed here, but I got the impression there was more the view Webber didn't deserve his Red Bull seat than people actually trying to suggest he's arguably the best. I think the top tier in the sport has Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, with the likes of Button, Webber, Rosberg, Massa etc occupying the tier below. I only really base my opinion there on the consistency of their performances, but on their day they can be unbeatable. Nico is on course to proving himself now he has a car capable of consistent podiums, so we'll see him being talked about more often hopefully.

Henners88: In most of the points I must agree with you. :)

Important point to mention: Nobody knows exacly how good Vettel is. He totally IS above F1 average. Moreover we presume/know (and everybody here must confirm this sentence) that Kimi, Alonso and Lewis are top class. Is Vettel same level? IMO yes, but who knows.