Webber's "problems" are just a "set up" to benefit Vettel. Period.

To cut the long story short – an "easy-going" team management combined with two very driven drivers, who don't want to yield, has created such situation. As evidenced, there is a long-term history to this, even if now we have reached the most critical stadium of it.

But to be honest, during the race I was pondering about the Red Bull dilemma. This was when Webber was still leading, but Vettel was close and Mercedes fading. Besides, Vettel was in a very tasty position – right after the final pitstop he was actually battling with Webber. At that time team orders hadn't been enforced yet? In any case, Seb was in full attack mode due to race circumstances, which were hard to calm down.

So which dilemma? „I would like a status quo, so that my drivers wouldn't race, but for the championship I need Vettel in front.“ Such thought came to my head, when I imagined myself in Horner's shoes. In the end he got that result. But how to do it?

Horner couldn't tell Vettel with a straight face that he as a triple WDC suddenly has to be a #2. It wasn't convincing. And probably Vettel felt it. Especially as Seb was right at the gearbox of Mark and could get a good run any time - especially in the DRS zone. It is not like there was a 5-second gap between them, so that both drivers could "calm down and cruise". „Ah, bugger it. He tells me team orders, but he isn't serious, is he?“

On the other hand Horner couldn't tell Webber to move over either, because he wouldn't listen and it would create even a bigger drama than Austria 2002.

Probably Horner concluded that for the team athmosphere it would be nice to have Webber winning for once, so that the Australian would feel like a respected team member and the fans would respect RBR as a team more as well. And perhaps those 7 lost points won't be so crucial in WDC this time. After all, Ferrari didn't order Massa to move over in Australia 2010 – also in the second race of the season. Or Renault didn't order Fisichella to give up a position to Alonso in Malaysia 2006.

But the problem arose, when Horner just couldn't be convincing enough for Vettel – and he himself hadn't convinced about the rightness of the 'status quo' move either. Sebastian could feel the hesitation. And so felt Horner. In addition to „you silly boy“ and "we will discuss about it" there were no more demands. Christian was uncomfortable, but he didn't order him to move back, feeling „okay, let's take those 7 additional points in the WDC fight then – that can't be bad either.“

People have discussed that a driver thinks he is bigger than the team. But in this situation it indeed happened. Suddenly Vettel became too important for RBR/Horner/whoever in the WDC fight that they couldn't properly hold his enthusiasm back.

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Originally Posted by Koz

Yes, balls.
Mateschitz should hire him.

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Too fat. He can't fit into an F1 cockpit.

Ok, Koz. Invective aside, what is your explanation/hypothesis for why a driver like MW, who is supposedly known for his willingness to fight, didn't? You haven't convinced me yet. and your objectivity seems a little opaque to me (but I wasn't originally calling that into question). Your reply to my earlier post does nothing to dismiss the idea that you think MW is the architect of his own misfortune.

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement. His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement, nothing to do with engine configuration. Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

SV has shown himself to be interested in only in SV, and he is in the fortunate position of being 3 times WDC so he can get away with it. This notion that MW is somehow to blame for his own misfortune is infantile crap.

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Indeed. Webber put up quite a fight to hold his position and no doubt it got to a point where he yielded slightly when he knew Seb wanted it more than the team. I would imagine he was fuming about the pass knowing it wasn't what had been discussed and in hindsight its been good for Mark. Seb has come off this looking very bad indeed. I just hope later in the season when Seb is running behind Webber and needs a little help, he is hung out to dry. If I was Mark I would be making it very clear to the team if anything like this ever happens again, there will be wheel banging. Its going to be fascinating to see the Red Bull PR machine at work in China in 3 weeks time. The same for Mercedes, although neither driver there did anything wrong IMO. Its certainly given us all something to talk about :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

Ok, Koz. Invective aside, what is your explanation/hypothesis for why a driver like MW, who is supposedly known for his willingness to fight, didn't? You haven't convinced me yet. and your objectivity seems a little opaque to me (but I wasn't originally calling that into question). Your reply to my earlier post does nothing to dismiss the idea that you think MW is the architect of his own misfortune.

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I believe I did, do I have to again?
Ok, let me try and be clearer.

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

I would best imagine that MW did nothing in regard to mirrors full of German as He trusted in the team orders agreement.

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I don't buy that. He has ignored team orders in the past - and failed, why should be believe that Vettel wouldn't do the same?
I don't understand his logic here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

His defending of position for half a lap was purely car placement,

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So we agree that he did fight and defend his position?
He couldn't keep up, so he gave up. He didn't even attempt to give chase - which I also don't understand.

[Car placement might be called by some as racing]

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

nothing to do with engine configuration.

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I am not 100% clear on what you are saying here, is it that Webber was in the wrong engine mode to fight?
He was fighting Vettel for two laps, if his engine mode was wrong, there was plenty of time to change it. I also don't believe that he would have kept fighting Vettel as long as he did, if he wasn't in the right mode.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

Once Bieber had passed him getting the motor back to full power trim would take a short while - with cooperation from the Pits - and by then Bieber was gone,

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Assuming, that you are correct and Webber wasn't in the right engine mode, why would he need cooperation from the pits?
He is the one who pushes the buttons or turns the knobs, not the guys on the pitwall, all they can do is give instructions.

You say it takes a "short while", can you clarify how long that is exactly?
I do not believe that this "short while" is so long that Vettel would so far gone and the race lost.

And once again, why wasn't he in the right engine mode to begin with when Vettel started attacking?

If he ignored common sense and placed his whole trust into a team, with which he is extremely familiar, whose leaders have time and again shown favoritism towards his team mate and have publicly called him a #2 driver, where he has himself ignored team orders in the past, then yes:

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

MW is to blame for his own misfortune

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[Fixed]

I wholeheartedly believe that Vettel was a tosser in this case for disobeying team orders.
But Webber did put up a fight - and he lost. After which he fell back and did nothing to counter attack.

Webber isn't stupid, he knew Beiber would give chase. His engine wasn't in the wrong mode, he wasn't unprepared, there's nothing like that at all.
The mostly likely reality here is that he simply lost because he was on primes and Vettel was on options. Had the situation been reversed, we would have seen Mark attacking for a bit before giving up. And everyone would be saying "Good job Mark! F* RBR! F* Beiber! Fight till the end!" or "RBR are ****ing Mark in the butt for Vettel" - hell, I've said that. So what's the difference here?

Neither RBR drivers are team players.

PS: Please don't just say you disagree or don't like my post or dismiss it. If you believe I am wrong, please point out where you think I am, and I am happy to argue my position. But a wholesale dismissal without any counter argument(s) is pointless.

Edit: Oh, I just noticed you're an Aussie. Sums it up. So I guess I shouldn't hope for a decent debate. :(

It keeps getting mentioned here that Webber has ignored team orders in the past and is somehow being used to justify Vettel's actions on Sunday.

The question is, why are Red Bull so publicly annoyed with Vettel when they have never showed this amount of tension when Webber supposedly did it in the past?

Red Bull have always protected Vettel in situations like this, but this time its a big deal. Why is this time different if the fans justify it because Webber had done it previously?

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Too fat. He can't fit into an F1 cockpit.

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****, ** *** *** **** Heidi ***** **?
* ** **** ** ***** ****** RBR.

[Censored for family forum.]

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Originally Posted by henners88

It keeps getting mentioned here that Webber has ignored team orders in the past and is somehow being used to justify Vettel's actions on Sunday.

The question is, why are Red Bull so publicly annoyed with Vettel when they have never showed this amount of tension when Webber supposedly did it in the past?

Red Bull have always protected Vettel in situations like this, but this time its a big deal. Why is this time different if the fans justify it because Webber had done it previously?

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This about sums it up.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Not really. What's the difference in disobeying team orders and not having the balls to go all the way and disobeying team orders and going through with it.

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If Webber made the moves stick, I am sure RBR would be angry too.


And lets not forget, if Webber was told that in the post race interview we would hear something about not being allowed to race and how he's a number #2 driver.
Vettel can't really use that excuse, can he?

If Barrichello pulled a Brazil on Shoe, his career at Ferrari would have been over there and then. Actually, almost any driver doing that against a teammate who is in a WDC fight at the last race would have had the sack.

For some reason, the more I think of this matter the more sympathy I lose for Mark.

Webber doesn't seem the type of guy to put up with the latest shennanigan. So now I see a new issue--which current RB driver gets the seat? Buemi? Jaime? Jeff, Ricciardo?

It's hard for me to envision any of those drivers in the car if they can get their hands on Hulkenberg. A Massa-Webber switch? Sutil?

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

Webber doesn't seem the type of guy to put up with the latest shennanigan. So now I see a new issue--which current RB driver gets the seat? Buemi? Jaime? Jeff, Ricciardo?

It's hard for me to envision any of those drivers in the car if they can get their hands on Hulkenberg. A Massa-Webber switch? Sutil?

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I don't understand why people have always been on about a Massa-Webber. Why would Webber want to move to a team that is synonymous with team orders and favoring Alonso, going so far as getting team mates grid penalties to get Alonso along?

As for a replacement for Webber, most likely Buemi?
But there are plenty of quality options out there but only one race winner. Kovalainen.