Government is evil...

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Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

Of course you could, if Dr Shipman worked for free every other Saturday it doesn't mean he is a good person because he killed all those folk, so that over rides and good deed he may have done so he was bad. Only a dithering idiot wouldn't be able to answer that re Brady/West.

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Simplistic, like I said.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Simplistic, like I said.

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http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vbNH_58qXI...roll+spray.jpg

simplistic to you maybe but true nonetheless

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

All they had to do is to reluctantly acknowledge the fact of citizens' taking back their liberties. They have succeeded in usurping many of those yet again since that time. King John comes to mind again.

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'They' by which I presume you mean governments did indeed bow to public pressure to increase rights which goes counter to your initial claim.

While I am against the reduction of human rights that happened in mnay countries as a response to 9/11 etc etc it would be very unfair to ignore that there was considerable pressure both from the public and media to do something concrete to reduce the chances of further attacks. Therefore whether increasing or decreasing human rights, in the examples you have chosen governments have to some degree tried to reflect public opinion.

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Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

simplistic to you maybe but true nonetheless

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Er... no. But don't let that trouble you.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

'They' by which I presume you mean governments did indeed bow to public pressure to increase rights which goes counter to your initial claim.

While I am against the reduction of human rights that happened in mnay countries as a response to 9/11 etc etc it would be very unfair to ignore that there was considerable pressure both from the public and media to do something concrete to reduce the chances of further attacks. Therefore whether increasing or decreasing human rights, in the examples you have chosen governments have to some degree tried to reflect public opinion.

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And not, I hasten to add, public opinion from the left of the political spectrum.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Er... no. But don't let that trouble you.

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So you think Shipman, Brady & West were not bad people? Only a bed wetting Liberal could think they were anything other than bad people.

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Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

So you think Shipman, Brady & West were not bad people? Only a bed wetting Liberal could think they were anything other than bad people.

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I think they were extremely ill people who committed appalling crimes.

Prove it!

They were not ill they were just bad.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

'They' by which I presume you mean governments did indeed bow to public pressure to increase rights which goes counter to your initial claim.

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Wrong. Rights and liberties are something the humankind was born with before any government existed. People choose voluntarily to restrain their liberties by imposing law on themselves and electing the government to guard the law with the purpose of achieving order, safety and security. Government is, therefore, is not a source of liberties and rights by any means. It is sort of a banker of human liberties and rights, who vows to keep those safe and give that deposit back to people when they request it. Alas, like many banks governments do not stick to their end of the deal and choose to screw clients.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Wrong. Rights and liberties are something the humankind was born with before any government existed. People choose voluntarily to restrain their liberties by imposing law on themselves and electing the government to guard the law with the purpose of achieving order, safety and security. Government is, therefore, is not a source of liberties and rights by any means. It is sort of a banker of human liberties and rights, who vows to keep those safe and give that deposit back to people when they request it. Alas, like many banks governments do not stick to their end of the deal and choose to screw clients.

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I was under the belief that your post I quoted was talking about the Eastern Bloc after the fall of Communism.

If you were intending it to be a general statement you should have made that clearer.

You are also wrong about rights and liberties. Whilst humankind may have had notions of freedom and rights, the modern concept of human rights and personal freedoms that you are referring to are a representation of a contract between the state and the individual, whether the state is represented by a single person like a king or whether its an entire organisation like a modern government.

The unwritten contract is this. You pay tax and obey laws. Time to time you may have to surrender your time in service to the state through conscription and make other sacrifices. In return you get certain rights and liberties recognised and receive services such as education, personal security, social security etc etc.

If you are writing a thesis on this subject then I'm sure you know this already.