Flex in non-flexible wings

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

This is just ridiculous, Sauber clearly broke the rules, otherwise they would've appealed it. With the front wing, the legality of a teams wing is defined by whether or not they pass the load test. Lets not forget that the FIA increased the loading in the tests last year more than once because of the RBR's wing flex. So lets give up with this whole favouring of a team nonsense. RBR have done nothing wrong.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Interesting ideas.

Not sure about the heating element idea as that would mean quite a few heating - cooling cycles per lap and I do not know if it would be practical.

The PZT would need to be adjusted in real time otherwise the car's aero performance would be compromised, and real time adjustment is forbidden.

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Fair points, because morphing still a developing concept with so many different materials, ways and variations of achieving either active or passive morphing, we really have no idea.
Unless they can use passively a pre-existing form of energy from the car be it heat or pressure (ie hydraulics) then anything else would be considered 'active' .
A passive adaptive structure is most likely what we are dealing with but I also struggle to see how other teams would find it hard to achieve similar when you consider that it should be a fairly basic thing to be able to achieve without too much difficulty, heck. even wind turbine blades are designed to passively unwind by twisting under aero pressure (gusts)

A Fluid Matrix construction could also be another possibility, it consists of several braided tubes within a flexable matrix, when pressure is applied hydraulicly through the hoses the structure stiffens. A simple valve or 2 within the hydraulic braking system could allow the driver to bypass the braking system, press the brake pedal on the straights to instead stiffen the nose and reduce drag. There is an example here.. http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/undergrad...g/files/86.pdf

Here are some other examples of the possibilities within all the morphing patents here.. http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110042524

And a range of smart materials here.. http://www.crgrp.com/technology.shtml

Worth a read Imo. :)

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Originally Posted by Zico

Fair points, because morphing still a developing concept with so many different materials, ways and variations of achieving either active or passive morphing, we really have no idea.
Unless they can use passively a pre-existing form of energy from the car be it heat or pressure (ie hydraulics) then anything else would be considered 'active' .
A passive adaptive structure is most likely what we are dealing with but I also struggle to see how other teams would find it hard to achieve similar when you consider that it should be a fairly basic thing to be able to achieve without too much difficulty, heck. even wind turbine blades are designed to passively unwind by twisting under aero pressure (gusts)

A Fluid Matrix construction could also be another possibility, it consists of several braided tubes within a flexable matrix, when pressure is applied hydraulicly through the hoses the structure stiffens. A simple valve or 2 within the hydraulic braking system could allow the driver to bypass the braking system, press the brake pedal on the straights to instead stiffen the nose and reduce drag. There is an example here.. http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/undergrad...g/files/86.pdf

Here are some other examples of the possibilities within all the morphing patents here.. http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110042524

And a range of smart materials here.. http://www.crgrp.com/technology.shtml

Worth a read Imo. :)

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Great ideas and great read. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

And , call me bagwan , or I'll not bother with you at all , thanks .

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Touche with my forum name too, eh? Quid Pro Quo and all that....

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Originally Posted by ioan

Great ideas and great read. Thanks!

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Thanks, I didn't believe it would be such an interesting subject to study but I'm enjoying it imensely.

However Red Bull are achieving what they are.. as long as its not directly breaking technical regulations, Im all for it. The technical directors/engineers in the rest of the teams dont seem to have a clue whats going on yet and have a lot of catching up to do.

There seem to be a whole lot more ways to do this bending of the wings than I imagined .
Thanks from me , also , Zico .

I'm not so sure your two way valve idea would pass scrutineering , though , but I like the outside of the box thinking .

What ever it is , it would have to have little effect on the balance , so couldn't be too heavy , or thick .
And , it would need to be adjustable , to some degree , to deal with the dropping fuel load over the race .

I think it's likely it's about the lay up of the carbon in that nose cone .
It's got to withstand a crash test , but that must be achieveable in a number of configurations . Allowing a specific amount of flex above a certain amount of force applied is probably pretty easy for these guys .
Mind you , if your aim the whole time up to now was that you were striving for as little flex as possible in that nose , then you've got a pretty steep , and expensive learning curve ahead .
And , for the nose itself , you might have to wait for next year , as it's a part of the crash structure , and , without special dispensation , like a fundamental flaw not previously seen , I don't think you can change it .

If some or all of the trick lies in the nose , then they are well behind the eight-ball .

If it's just the wings , then it seems to me to be some trick lay-up .

rather than the ends flexing down, could the underside of the nose be flexing up in the middle with air pressure underneath, having the same effect, but not being measureable by a weight loading on the wing?

might be stupid, but just a thought

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Originally Posted by Robinho

rather than the ends flexing down, could the underside of the nose be flexing up in the middle with air pressure underneath, having the same effect, but not being measureable by a weight loading on the wing?

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That would engender lift which is not what they want, especially such a big load.

true, it would rather contradict the intended outcome wouldn't it?

^Plus, the rules stipulate that the centre of the wing must have an aero neutral profile, so they shouldnt be generating much lift or downforce anyway.

Its been reported for some time now that RBR have spent several years developing advanced carbon layering techniques at the factory and its only in the last year that we've seen the benefits. Also, the suggestion is that it could take some time for the other teams to catch up because of the increased potential for wing failures.