The purpose of government

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Legally owned property is yours, you have the rights to do with it as you see fit, as long as that does not interfere with another's property.

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Until the guvermint come along and says, you did not pay your taxes and now it all belongs to us.....and if you don't get, your ass ain't even gonna belong to you

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Originally Posted by markabilly

yes, but you are still talking about power, and the differences between various governments in the past and present, USA and the world over, has been how that power has been used or not used (or has been limited)

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Yes, I am talking about how different governments have treated property rights past and present.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Is it being used to protect your personal property, to keep you safe at night, or it is being used to drag people off to extermination at concentration camps? It is a question of freedom vs. control, of rights to do something v. the power to prevent you from doing something.

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Exactly my point. I suppose I could have said it better from the begining. I was sort of getting at the differences between good and bad governments/laws. In my mind the difference comes from who controls property. Oppressive governments tend to believe that they control property where free governments tend to believe that individuals own property.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Even the Declaration of Independence was about power over rights, and the abuse of same:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world

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What are the "certain unalienable Rights" that were being destructed by the government of England? "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness", or as was said in the Virginia Declaration of Rights (the inspiration of most of the Declaration of Independence), "life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety". All of which when boiled down means property rights.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

1) Start a thread asking for an opinion, without offering your own.
2) Wait for opinions to roll in.

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I stated that was my purpose from the begining, just wanting to see what others would come up with.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

3) Dismiss those opinions as being wrong.

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I'll agree, perhaps I was overly harsh, or badly worded my response. I don't mean to completely dismiss the opinions. Just to say that at the core they all boil down to the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

You wonder why I didn't bother contributing? I could see it coming a mile off.

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I don't wonder why you didn't contribute. I couldn't care less if you contribute or not. It's a free forum. No one is forcing participation here. You could see it coming a mile off because I told you exactly what I was doing in my first post where I said that I was going to reserve my opinion for later on. Doesn't take a rocket scientist.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Until the guvermint come along and says, you did not pay your taxes and now it all belongs to us.....and if you don't get, your ass ain't even gonna belong to you

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I would suggest that that is the point where a government transforms from a government to tyranny, and perhaps it may be time for a revolution.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I would suggest that that is the point where a government transforms from a government to tyranny, and perhaps it may be time for a revolution.

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been happening for years

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Originally Posted by markabilly

been happening for years

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"The Emperor wears no clothes, but doesn't like to be told so"...

Yes, people should be aware by now of the excessive bureaucracy and corruption that has existed for many years within their country's government, but most people seem to be too ignorant, docile, apathetic, and blinded by material possessions to speak up and take action against their government, which oftentimes appears to be more like a tyranny masquerading as a democracy.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Legally owned property is yours, you have the rights to do with it as you see fit, as long as that does not interfere with another's property.

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So are you saying that the reason for the existence of government, or its purpose, is to step in to protect personal property rights only when an individual interferes with anothers property?

If so that is a far too narrow definition of government IMHO.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

No corporations are corporations, and therefore not governments. Same with your football club, it's a club not a government.

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Government n.
1. - The act of governing
2. - The system by which a nation, state, community or entity is governed
3. - A body pr persons governing a nation state or community
- OED 2.

The Board of a Corporation and the Executive Committee of my Football Club, are both charged with the act of governing, both operate under a system for doing so (usually spelled out by a Constitution or Memorandum of Association or equivalent), and they're both a body of persons, just like the executive of a nation.
Therefore they satisfy the very dictionary definition of a government.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Aren't your thoughts, conscience, religion and speach your posessions?

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I do believe I included the words "intangible property". Did you not read this?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

What is power without something to control?

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People and policies are things.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

The US Constitution is all about limiting the ability of the government (particularly the Federal Government) to control private property.

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No it isn't.
The US Constitution is about forming "a more perfect Union", establishing Justice, insuring domestic Tranquility, providing for the common defence, promoting the general Welfare, and securing the Blessings of Liberty.

A preamble is a statement of purpose which explains what a document is for. Not once does the preamble mention anything about limiting the ability of the government nor the control of private property.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

So are you saying that the reason for the existence of government, or its purpose, is to step in to protect personal property rights only when an individual interferes with anothers property?

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That is what I'm saying a government should be.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

If so that is a far too narrow definition of government IMHO.

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Why? What else should a government be involved in?