No, but I would have allowed them to withdraw to within their own borders, forget about the "final solution" and the "1000 years Reich" and resign from power.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
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No, but I would have allowed them to withdraw to within their own borders, forget about the "final solution" and the "1000 years Reich" and resign from power.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
And why would they have done that? Negotiations? Threats?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Are you that naive?
Because they may have seen they're going to lose eventually and this way they could have had a chance to save their lives and freedom. At least they would have been given a chance to throw in the towel. Finland agreed to make a peace with the Soviet Union both in March 1940 and in September 1944, because they realized they were going to lose anyway sooner or later and this way they could at least make a tolerable deal sooner instead of an unconditional surrender later.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
At least Himmler was ready to negotiate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler
So was Hess:Quote:
In the winter of 1944–45, Himmler's Waffen-SS numbered 910,000 members, with the Allgemeine-SS (at least on paper) hosting a membership of nearly two million. However, by early 1945 Himmler had lost faith in German victory, likely due in part to his discussions with his masseur Felix Kersten and with Walter Schellenberg.[22] He realized that if the Nazi regime were to survive, it needed to seek peace with Britain and the United States. He also believed that Hitler had effectively incapacitated himself from governing by remaining in Berlin to personally lead the defence of the capital against the Soviets.
To this end, he contacted Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden at Lübeck, near the Danish border. He represented himself as the provisional leader of Germany, telling Bernadotte that Hitler would almost certainly be dead within two days. He asked Bernadotte to tell General Dwight Eisenhower that Germany wished to surrender to the West. Himmler hoped the British and Americans would fight the Soviets alongside the remains of the Wehrmacht. At Bernadotte's request, Himmler put his offer in writing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_...ht_to_Scotland
Quote:
Like Goebbels, Hess was privately distressed by the war with the United Kingdom because he, like almost all other Nazis, hoped that Britain would accept Germany as an ally. Hess may have hoped to score a diplomatic victory by sealing a peace between the Third Reich and Britain,[16] e.g., by implementing the behind-the-scenes move of the Haushofers[clarification needed] in Nazi Germany to contact Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, 14th Duke of Hamilton.[17]
On 10 May 1941, at about 6:00 P.M., Hess took off from Augsburg in a Messerschmitt Bf 110, and Hitler ordered the General of the Fighter Arm to stop him (squadron leaders were ordered to scramble only one or two fighters, since Hess' particular aircraft could not be distinguished from others).[18] Hess parachuted over Renfrewshire, Scotland on 10 May and landed (breaking his ankle) at Floors Farm near Eaglesham.[citation needed] In a newsreel clip, farmhand David McLean claims to have arrested Hess with his pitchfork.[18]
So you would have been OK with the Nazis to go on Committing Genocide and remain a threat to the world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Even bigger thumbs-up on this move.
America is making the right move by steadying relations with Asian countries.
China is probably going to be a little upset that America is playing in their backyard, but tough!
No-one knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
The Potsdam Declaration was issued on the 26th of July. Japan initially rejected the terms of surrender because they included the removal of the Emperor. On the 30th of July they asked for 14 days to consider the proposal, and were granted it.
Important Date: The Japanese were given until the 13th of August.
On July 2, Hirohito flew to Vladivostok for a conference with Stalin. At this point we either have to concede that Hirohito was either looking for an ally for negotiations with Potsdam, or perhaps to for Japan to become a Soviet Protectorate. I guess we'll never know.
On the 3rd, The US Air Force destroyed Vladivostok's air strip and port facilities citing that intelligence had detailed "important activity in that area". It has never been stated by US official just what that "important activity" was, but it effectively locked Hirohito in Soviet territory.
On the 5th, the Japanese parliament was deadlocked 6-6 on whether to accept the terms of surrender; Hirohito had the casting vote but he couldn't issue it because he was still stuck in Vladivostok's because the US Air Force destroyed all the air and sea ports.
The Japanese PM Kantaro Suzuki issued a statement of "Mokusatsu" with regards the instrument of surrender.
On the 6th of August, 140,000 people were killed by the first nuclear bomb. This was 8 days before the Japanese would have been required to surrender. Nagasaki was bombed on the 9th.
Make up your own mind.
What does Mokusatsu mean? What would have Hirohito done if he'd been allowed to fly back to Japan? Who honestly knows?
Personally I think that dropping the bomb did save more lives than would have been killed if an invasion had taken place, but that might have never have happened, and at any rate it was slated for X-Day and Y-Day which wouldn't have been until November 1, 1945 and March 1, 1946.
I kind of half agree with this and half not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
The Japanese treatment of peasantry throughout South East Asia and Prisoners of War was evil. Although dropping the bombs did achieve the ends required, it was cowardly and ultimately I think unjustified.
On the other hand apologizing doesn't really achieve anything useful or lasting - Actual action does. I think that both Japan and the United States have both showed that action several thousand times over.
I don't think however they they should be glad that they didn't have to face another mushroom cloud, as I don't think that the first two were justified, not what was to follow:
"the next bomb should be ready for delivery on the first suitable weather after 17 or August 18."
- Major General Leslie Groves, the director of the Manhattan Project. August 10, 1945.
I think that that "next bomb" would have been just as cowardly and unjustified as the two which proceeded it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Where did you get that crap?
The Emperor never left Japanese soil doing WW2
Hirohito never went to Russia
The US did not bomb Vladivostok(That is beyond ridiculous)
The Parliament could only recommend to the Emperor. The Emperor was not a "Deciding Vote".....He was the Only Vote.
And the Potsdam Declaration did not set a date of August 13th. It didn't set any date.
Quote:
Potsdam Declaration
July 26, 1945
(1) We-the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war.
(2) The prodigious land, sea and air forces of the United States, the British Empire and of China, many times reinforced by their armies and air fleets from the west, are poised to strike the final blows upon Japan. This military power is sustained and inspired by the determination of all the Allied Nations to prosecute the war against Japan until she ceases to resist.
(3) The result of the futile and senseless German resistance to the might of the aroused free peoples of the world stands forth in awful clarity as an example to the people of Japan. The might that now converges on Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland.
(4) The time has come for Japan to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed militaristic advisers whose unintelligent calculations have brought the Empire of Japan to the threshold of annihilation, or whether she will follow the path of reason.
(5) Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay.
(6) There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest, for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world.
(7) Until such a new order is established and until there is convincing proof that Japan's war-making power is destroyed, points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies shall be occupied to secure the achievement of the basic objectives we are here setting forth.
(8) The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.
(9) The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.
(10) We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established.
(11) Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those which would enable her to re-arm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of, raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese, participation in world trade relations shall be permitted.
(12) The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.
(13) We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.
You'll find details in Thomas Parrish's book: Roosevelt and Marshall: Partners in Politics and War , though he seems to reference George C. Marshall's four part biography quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Herbert Bix's book Hirohito And The Making of Modern Japan also looks at where the emperor went based on government documents.
I never said it did, you're putting words into my mouth:Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Sorry, but I said that Japan had asked for time to consider it, not that the declaration itself had a date set. These are very different concepts, but somehow I doubt that you know the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
You wrote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
The rest of your stuff just came from a bunch of conspiracy theorists who write garbage because they can sell it to people like you who won't question it's validity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/a...hirostal96.jpg
Oops. Hirohito never went to Russia indeed... feh. I'd rather believe properly researched material than heresay from you.