IRL Safety Team = Epic Fail

OK. That's one way of looking at it. I have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Again it doesn't matter how many were or were not killed.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

There is an institutional mindset with the IRL I think that has caused them to just block out the reality that it was done better 15 years ago because THEY Didn't invent it. It was a CART thing..and god knows we don't like what they were about do we?

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

And there is the problem. You see any comparison like that and the "red mist" sets in. You think any mention of the IRL and CART in the same sentence is a drumming up of the old war. Guess what bud, it isn't. It is a comparison, nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Look who started the thread. Is he a fan of the IRL in any way, shape or form? Does he currently post on the hate site? Answer honestly.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Who gives a rat's @$$ who STARTED the thread. You sound like a 5 year old. "Mommy, Mommy he hit me first." Pathetic.

You didn't say anything in your message (quoted below) about directing your response at one person and several folks here mentioned the IRL and CART.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

You like calling names, don't you? How about just addressing the actual facts of the situatuion?

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Which facts are we talking about? The above quotes are the EXACT sequence of events leading us to here. You quoted Mark and then went on your usual "us versus them" tirade. Then when called out on that, you attempt to divert your remarks to the original poster. Facts? Again what "facts" might that be?

We're done, I am not wasting another keystroke on this garbage. If you can't stand folks actually trying to compare and critique how things were done and are done now without turning it into some CART vs. IRL battle, then just skip any post where you see the four letter CART.

Gary

The "facts" are that the IRL safety crew and procedures have AT LEAST as good of a track record as CART had. The IRL has had no driver injuries due to slow response (other than recent fire incident and quite frankly they got there quick they just dropped the ball) and no marshall/safety crew deaths, something that cannot be said about CART.

I think some like to look back with rose colored glasses....

And with that, I'll let it go. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Which facts are we talking about? The above quotes are the EXACT sequence of events leading us to here. You quoted Mark and then went on your usual "us versus them" tirade. Then when called out on that, you attempt to divert your remarks to the original poster. Facts? Again what "facts" might that be?

We're done, I am not wasting another keystroke on this garbage. If you can't stand folks actually trying to compare and critique how things were done and are done now without turning it into some CART vs. IRL battle, then just skip any post where you see the four letter CART.

Gary

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

The "facts" are that the IRL safety crew and procedures have AT LEAST as good of a track record as CART had. The IRL has had no driver injuries due to slow response (other than recent fire incident and quite frankly they got there quick they just dropped the ball) and no marshall/safety crew deaths, something that cannot be said about CART.

I think some like to look back with rose colored glasses....

And with that, I'll let it go. Cheers.

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STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!
Stop using other series as an excuse. You are like a 3rd grader who got caught passing notes in class and saying that another passes more.

I don't care what CART did. I don't care what F-1 did.


I care about at least One Minute and Twenty Three Seconds passing before a rescue crew arriving at the site of an accident.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Yes yes we get it. You're a "concerned" fan.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!
Stop using other series as an excuse. You are like a 3rd grader who got caught passing notes in class and saying that another passes more.

I don't care what CART did. I don't care what F-1 did.


I care about at least One Minute and Twenty Three Seconds passing before a rescue crew arriving at the site of an accident.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Here's another mindset I see here often. "IRL bad. CART good". It's usually the same 3 or 4 guys too.

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With you it is the other way around. And you are also dead wrong. Your idea that things are fine is not backed up by any argument other than no one died. Sounds like NASCAR when Adam Petty died....."well this is a unique accident". Then Kenny Irwin and then Dale Earnhardt. It is besides the point.

You think it is acceptable for a driver in a burning car to wait a minute and a half almost and when the stupid safety guy gets there, he cannot even figure out how to tackle the blaze and get her out. IF that is what you call acceptable, There is no point in having the conversation.

This isn't about CART good IRL bad by itself, but it is clear to me that was Tony George's reasoning for dumping the only thing that worked about CART/CCWS the way it was designed.

This is typical of you Deco, accuse others of what you are actually doing, and yet not see it.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Stupid in your opinion. It's easy for you to sit at home and take pot shots at safety procedures. It's a whole different matter when you actually have to take responsibility for what happens on the track to the drivers and the course workers, both legally and morally.

Again, how many IRL drivers have been killed or seriously injured because of slow (in your opinion) safety team procedures? And how many marshals or members of the safety crew have been injured or killed in that same time?

I know of at least two incidents where course workers were killed at CART events. And what, three or four drivers? I'm just saying if you take a deep breath, remove personal agendas and bias out of the agenda and only look at the facts the IRL's safety crew and safety procedurees have on whole done at least as good of a job as CART in helping the drivers while at the same time keeping the course workers safe.

It's not an easy job. It's an imperfect situation. Changes are made when it becomes appartent that there is a better way to do things. But series officials have to be careful to create an even more dangerous situation when making safety procedure changes.

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The two course workers died not 300 yards from me in Toronto. They were placed there by a guy who obviously was clueless. Changes were made. Unlike the IRL mindset, where people are so brilliant they don't need to learn anything more, CART learned a lot from their mistakes. This isn't about course marshals though Deco. Your argument is full of holes because you are still on this CART/IRL warfare mindset, which makes arguing anything with you both easy and frustrating. Easy, because it is so obvious, and frustrating because you continually ignore facts.

The safety system that CART used right to the end was more efficient and did demonstrate that on god knows how many occasions. This isn't about the course marshals, who are often placed by officials not connected with the governing body. This is about the concept of the rolling safety truck. An idea pioneered ironically by the NHRA, who were the first ones to have a full time safety team to rip down the strip and save a driver's life if necessary. CART picked up the concept, adapted it to road racing and ovals alike, and unlike the IRL, constantly upgraded it and improved it at great expense. It was the ONLY thing they did better constantly at all times better than almost any other organization.

Yet people like you Deco poo poo it...consider it unnecessary and dangerous. The concept isn't a theory, it WORKED for 2 decades plus. Alex Zanardi is arguably alive today because of it. So for you to dump on it is out of ignorance, and just being contrarian. That's fine, you can do that....but you notice of course no one is really backing your argument.

IN short, you would be wise to realize you are wrong.....

I did not mention CART/CC in my comments. I said how to get rescue trucks rolling SAFELY before the field is under control of the Pace car. This technology is fairly new.
IC's methods are probably ok on most if not all ovals. But they need to adapt on road/street courses.
I also cannot comprehend why they will not use track safety people and equipment.
Two trucks are not enough on road/street courses even if they can roll almost immediately. Whereas on an oval they can run flat out they sure cannot on a road course with often slow corners.
IC and Deco seem to have the closed mindset that was typical of USAC. It is the 21st Century so embrace new technology and quit thinking and acting the same way it was 10 or so years ago.
There is always room for improvement.

My God enough already, downtowndeco! I think we can all agree that safety is most important. We have seen far to many lose thier lives in accidents and a minute and a half is just too slow.

I have to stand corrected. A little bird reminded me there was ONE marshal killed in Toronto, Gary Avrin, and Krosnoff was the other fatality in the car. The other marshal was killed in Vancouver in their first race, and it was a QRFA marshal who took it into his own head to venture onto a race track not under control to push a car....

AS for Deco, he just thinks ok is ok....and on safety, in a top flight series, ok is not enough...especially when you consider people like Deco figure 2 minutes is ok when SCCA regions and CASC here in Ontario often can do better than that with half the resources and VOLUNTEERS!