The world of Fiero, so he has spoken, so it shall be.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Holey crap....Clinton and Bush took HEAT from the chattering classes for NOT doing something in Rwanda and Darfur and took heat from the same people for Iraq. My point is the US is damend if they do, damned if they don't. Now you condemn the US for being in Haiti. I guess you better put Canada and Brazil in there as conquerers too, because we both have troops in there.

My point has been always is the USA is always wrong. If they get involved somewhere, whether they have a noble goal or just a goal, they are wrong, and then they get slammed for helping poor nations with nothing. There were people slagging Clinton moving the Marines into Somaila because it was a failed state and then all over him for pulling them OUT less than a year later.

If you hate the Americans like you and Eki seem to Steve, then nothing they do outside there borders is ever justified now is it?

AS for you Eki, the Soviet Union was tossed out of the League for invading Finland but that happened to be more feckless than the useless UN. THe reason the USA isn't tossed should be obvious. 1/3 of the Budget of the UN comes from the USA. Believe me, there a ton of Americans that would love it shipped to Helsinki or some other "englightened" capital and they could just get out of it. Believe me, Americans on the citizen level probably would vote to get the heck out of the UN. As a Canadian, I would love to see the Americans out and Canada out, but I know the latter would never happen...

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Most Americans have no clue what the UN is anyway so yeah why pay for something you have no clue about eh? ;) Also the US has a habit of ignoring the UN so why in the hell bother at all????

Hate is a strong word Mark. Im sure you know i dont HATE Americans, i just find alot of them to be VERY ignorant and think they can do as they please. That would be why alot of people (not including myself) HATE them. You have to admit they do poke their noses in where its not wanted...trying to tell others how they should run their country, when their country is in a BIG bag of poo aswell...

charity begins at home does it not?

The main reason why the US and others help these poor countries is because they play the "hearts and minds" game. We will give this and that if you guys do this and that for us...Its NOT to help them its to get what they want out of them...

There is nothing in Haiti to want and it was like that before the earthquake.
The poorest country in the Americas.

The theft of Haiti has been swift and crude. On 22 January, the United States secured “formal approval” from the United Nations to take over all air and sea ports in Haiti, and to “secure” roads. No Haitian signed the agreement, which has no basis in law. Power rules in an American naval blockade and the arrival of 13,000 marines, special forces, spooks and mercenaries, none with humanitarian relief training.

The airport in the capital, Port-au-Prince, is now an American military base and relief flights have been re-routed to the Dominican Republic. All flights stopped for three hours for the arrival of Hillary Clinton. Critically injured Haitians waited unaided as 800 American residents in Haiti were fed, watered and evacuated. Six days passed before the US Air Force dropped bottled water to people suffering thirst and dehydration.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

There is nothing in Haiti to want and it was like that before the earthquake.
The poorest country in the Americas.

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http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=564

In his latest column for the New Statesman, John Pilger describes the "swift and crude" appropriation of earthquake-ravaged Haiti by the militarised Obama administration. With George W. Bush attending to the "relief effort" and Bill Clinton the UN's man, The Comedians, Graham Greene's dark novel about exploted Haiti comes to mind.



The theft of Haiti has been swift and crude. On 22 January, the United States secured “formal approval” from the United Nations to take over all air and sea ports in Haiti, and to “secure” roads. No Haitian signed the agreement, which has no basis in law. Power rules in an American naval blockade and the arrival of 13,000 marines, special forces, spooks and mercenaries, none with humanitarian relief training.

The airport in the capital, Port-au-Prince, is now an American military base and relief flights have been re-routed to the Dominican Republic. All flights stopped for three hours for the arrival of Hillary Clinton. Critically injured Haitians waited unaided as 800 American residents in Haiti were fed, watered and evacuated. Six days passed before the US Air Force dropped bottled water to people suffering thirst and dehydration.

As I said to Eki: Horsefeathers.
The President of Haiti was at the airport early on. The control tower was demolished and the Haitian Airport staff either killed or looking for family. That is why the US took control. Canada's Dart team arrived there as did other Cdn. aid flights. DART produce large quantities of clean water hourly among other things. The reason some flights were rerouted to the Dominican Republic was that the Haitian Airport was jammed up with too many flights. At the time there literally was no space to land or park and unload planes. Many non military mercy flights have landed there since including Cdn. Flights in and out are now scheduled to avoid backups. That took time to organize and only the US was capable of setting it up. Basically an air traffic control system had to be set up from scratch!
Another problem has been so many destroyed roads or ones totally blocked with rubble it has been difficult to move supplies to where needed. Heavy equipment has to be imported as does fuel. The fuel depots were destroyed or damaged.
Canada has two warships at another area with both soldiers and sailors ashore maintaining order and providing food and water. We have set up portable field hospitals. If there is a naval blockade I guess our warships fought their way through. Sacasm aside the last thing needed are a bunch of private sightseeing boats.
Canada has over 2000 military there. With our troops in Afghanistan and more needed for security at the Oympics we are stretched very thin.
Brazil has troops there.
There are volunteer aid personal from many countries. Israel has a large fully equipped portable medical facility complete with operating rooms.
Before the Quake there were police officers from several countries in Haiti training the Haitian Police. Two of our RCMP officers were killed.
Last weekend the Barrie Police Dept. had a drive to collect donated tents to send. Barrie is a city of about 130,000. They filled a cube van with donated tents. They were shipped out today.
It is only logical for the US to take charge. They are close, relatively speaking, have the personal and equipment and the means to get them there.
I know there were teams from the UK and even Iceland operating shortly after the earthquake.
Sure there are going to be glitches and problems. There is no question there is anarchy in some areas. Remember the main prison was destroyed and all the immates escaped. Yes people are desparate but there basically is no infrastructure left with very few safe buildings. Most water systems destroyed, power plants destroyed. This makes the Tusami look like a minor event.
As also pointed out there is nothing in Haiti anyone wants.
Canada has loosened its immigration laws for Haiti and already many Cdn. families have adopted orphans.
Oh yes our Governor General is originally from Haiti.

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

Most Americans have no clue what the UN is anyway so yeah why pay for something you have no clue about eh? ;) Also the US has a habit of ignoring the UN so why in the hell bother at all????

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They ignore the UN, the Chinese ignore the UN, Britain has at times ignored the UN, the French ignore anyone who they feel like ignoring, ...you see a trend here of course? The USSR and later Russia? God knows they used to ignore the UN, and I am pretty sure the UN didn't approve of that little adventure in Ossetia/Georgia.

Get a grip Steve, most nations with power and influence ignore the UN, yours included....The UN is full of idiots really.....and yes Americans are ignorant of the UN, but what they know, they often don't like. Charity does begin at home, and if the money spent on the UN was spent at home, I suspect you could do some good with it.

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

Hate is a strong word Mark. Im sure you know i dont HATE Americans, i just find alot of them to be VERY ignorant and think they can do as they please. That would be why alot of people (not including myself) HATE them. You have to admit they do poke their noses in where its not wanted...trying to tell others how they should run their country, when their country is in a BIG bag of poo aswell...

charity begins at home does it not?

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You just called the USA a big bag of poo. That's nice...you go overseas to football games and start fights? I guarntee you walk around most American cities calling their town a bag of poo, even if the city IS one, you will be asking for a fight. I dont think you HATE America, but the fact we are even having the discussion should put a filter on your mouth on some of the things you accuse them of.

Are they nasty and ugly on a holiday? Some of them are, and I have heard people who work in resorts hate drunken and stupid Brits at times. Germans? God knows they expose parts they shouldn't and stay drunk all the time. Italians? Cant get them from shutting up and making a lot of noise? The French? Gawd, they don't even like themselves. As I said; get a grip every nation has its morons, clods and jerks. If you cant figure that out, maybe you might be one. Steve, I am being harsh because you just dump on a country and play to every negative stereotype you can name and if you had done that about blacks or jews, some countries would be looking at you for hate speech. Get a grip son, you know better than that and I know you do.

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

The main reason why the US and others help these poor countries is because they play the "hearts and minds" game. We will give this and that if you guys do this and that for us...Its NOT to help them its to get what they want out of them

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Did it ever ONCE occur to you that maybe the US wants to help legitmately? Maybe they have self interest in stopping the failed state of Haiti from getting much worse and having a bunch of poor Haitians showing up in Miami as refugees. I doubt it however. The military is there because that is the only way would find 13000 people willing to help AND protect the aid workers already there. There has been riots for food, riots for water. Haiti was a failed state BEFORE the earthquake so there is no way they have any power to do anything. IF we waited for the useless UN to organize things, half of Haiti would be in the Dominican Republic looking for help by now.

The US, Canada, Brazil and other nations have been in there since day one, and all those nations sent in their military. IT is however a humantarian mission. You say the soldiers are not trained for that? Ever occur to you they are human? Have family at home? You figure when they put the uniform on they forget how to be decent to people? Stupid thing for you to say Steve. I thought you were smarter than that.....

Haiti is a mess, and there is no real upside financially or powerwise for the US or any other nation in that part of the world helping. IT is a moral imperative to help, just like the US had a carrier and naval units off shore the day of the tsunami in Indonesia and Thailand. Helping....and even then, they were accused of an motive other than just good will. UNFREAKING believeable. If they hadn't helped, you would dump on them for ignoring the pain and suffering.

You say you don't hate Americans or America? Funny way of showing it chum. Cant wait to hear what you say about Canadians.....

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

Well lets hope the people get the help they need...thats the most important thing at the end of the day

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Yes, I agree. When something like this happens, all political differences seem petty.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

If you hate the Americans like you and Eki seem to Steve, then nothing they do outside there borders is ever justified now is it?

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Have I complained that the US didn't invade Rwanda or Darfur? No.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Eki we are talking the Koreas not Finland.

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Situation of Finland in 1918 was very similar to Korea in 1950. Big countries meddled with internal affairs of small countries and gave them weapons, training and even troops so that they can fight a civil war. Situation of Finland in 1939 was very similar to Iraq in 2003. Big countries invaded small countries saying they are going to liberate them and claimed that they were threats to the security of the big countries.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

There is nothing in Haiti to want

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Children?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8494841.stm