It's time to screw Russia over

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What is your answer, then?

And don't forget that Churchill got voted out as soon as the war was over, and for good reasons, so he was no panacea of political excellence. Moving on, had those in the Cold War who advocated, for example, a tough response to the Berlin crisis of 1961 held sway, the leaders of the time feared nuclear war and with good reason. Thankfully, wiser counsels prevailed and they will surely do so now, for armed conflict with Russia is not the answer.

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Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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Originally Posted by ioan

Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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:up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

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Looks nice on paper, but i dont think 1-2 countries can throw 1 member out from G8, also the olympic movement is not a political movment, and would not move the games for this reason, but countries can boycott the games if they want, but I dont think they would, else they would not be in China now. Where Russian companies operate i think is every countries individual issue, so that would not work so well either.

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Originally Posted by Eki

So you believe that his motive is the hope that Georgia would help Europe and NATO, and not the hope that Europe and NATO would help Georgia? I'm quite sure his motives are mostly selfish. He wants more firepower against Russia.

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Are you kidding? I hope so. :\

Ofcourse they want to be part of the EU and NATO because they would have plenty of advantages.
But to suggest that he id doing it for the sake of having more military power against Russia is stupid, simply because such a small country can't win a war against Russia, and nor the EU or the NATO will have a war with Russia either.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Looks nice on paper, but i dont think 1-2 countries can throw 1 member out from G8, also the olympic movement is not a political movment, and would not move the games for this reason, but countries can boycott the games if they want, but I dont think they would, else they would not be in China now. Where Russian companies operate i think is every countries individual issue, so that would not work so well either.

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Really? The G8 counts 7 countries + Russia, not 1 or 2, democratic countries that should punish violent behavior.
The IOC is not a political movement? Dream on.
As for the individual countries where Russian companies operate, well most of these countries are the Western countries, countries that are based on democracy and who's people are against the kind of action that Russia is taking at the moment.

Looking at you post I see the paralytic state of the West, people who have the power to do something but are so afraid to move one finger against those who are the arch enemies of democracy.

Tell me, what do you think we should do against Russia. And don't be afraid just because you get all your gas from the Russians!

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Originally Posted by Daniel

There's a time to love and a time to hate..

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No, that's insane. There's a need of a general equilibrum.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Weren't you on the forum complaining how the West wasn't there for you in your countrys time of need when the Russians were opressing the crap out of your country?
Double standards? :laugh: ..

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Exactly, if they didn't do that then why should they do it now? Is Georgia more important than other nations?
BTW, talking about double standards, weren't you explaining that at that time the west did the right thing? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

It's simple. Russia's oil and gas is behind their resurgence. 15 years ago Russia was nothing. They couldn't have fought off an under 15's football team let alone a proper army. But thanks to the thirst in Europe for gas and oil they're now filthy rich and because their oil and gas is in such demand they can step on any toes they want and get away with it. Russia can turn off the gas and freeze you to death if they want. If Europe wants things to stay the way they are now we need to stop using oil and gas like we have an unlimited and consequence free supply of the stuff. I like my women with brown hair and my Russians queuing in the streets for bread and unable to fly their planes because they're frigging poor.:..

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It's not a thirst of oil and gas, it's a NEED. Without them the prosperous economies of the west will be nothing. Personally I had the back luck to freeze to death, even without a russian turning off of these utilities. It was so awful that the guy who took the decision to freeze us ( ironically, the reason was also " to stop our dependence of foreign resources ") ended with a lot of bullets in his head.
If Russia was nothing 15 years ago then what was it back in 1968 when Cechoslovakia was invaded? What did the " democratic countries " except from some criticism?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Laugh all you like. The stakes are much higher for you than I.

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Right. In the past, such typical westerner arrogance would have annoied me. Now all I can do is....laugh, and laugh and laugh. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.).

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Are you sure these " punishments" are enough to change their foreign policy?

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Originally Posted by ioan

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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A war is a war and many of them finished with a surprising winner. I have serious doubts that an european country alone or in a coalition can win a war against Russia, Anyway, a war takes a long time and a lot of human lives so even if you may be sure you'll win it's better to avoid it. That's why diplomacy exists.
About the nuclear war...Theoratically, nobody has the interest to ever use a nuclear weapon, however an army who has it is better to be avoided.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Those were not their own people, and if they were why were they in Georgia?!

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Let's not forget that things happened after Georgia attacked Ossetia. I bet that in that separatist country a lot of people have russian citizenship. Georgia is also a former SU country and I don't rule out a possible double citizenship of some guys.
BTW, when USA invaded Grenada the major justification for the invasion was the protection of American lives but the real reasons were of course different.

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Originally Posted by ioan

No really?!
Who puts them up there, and who keeps them up there, and who protects them KGB leaders?! That nation, with it's culture, because the culture of a nation isn't just their greatest and worldwide accepted artists, it's also the culture of the vodka drunken idiots!
You can't say that Rachmaninoff's art outweighs the other hundreds of millions of idiots lack of culture and intelligence.

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Ioane, Ioane, I thought you know a thing or two about the elections in that part of the world. And about the candidates, too.
Anyway, intersetng point of view about the drunkers, but remember that you yourself belong to a nation that is more than friendly with the glass and who usually end up their boozing with an axe in the neighbour's head or with the rape of an old lady. :laugh: .
Your views on art are weird ( to use an euphemism :laugh: ), but what sensiblility should I expect from a "martial " guy like you? Don't remember that I ever said that russians are the best ( as if art can be measured ), their art just appeal to my soul and a nation that could create such masterpieces can't be ignored.
Lack of culture and intelligence is in fact a characteristic for the masses of a lot of civilised countries and just because you like to drink vodka it doesn't mean you're necessarily stupid. Neither whiskey nor beer would make you smarter. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Exactly, if they didn't do that then why should they do it now? Is Georgia more important than other nations?
BTW, talking about double standards, weren't you explaining that at that time the west did the right thing? :laugh:

It's not a thirst of oil and gas, it's a NEED. Without them the prosperous economies of the west will be nothing. Personally I had the back luck to freeze to death, even without a russian turning off of these utilities. It was so awful that the guy who took the decision to freeze us ( ironically, the reason was also " to stop our dependence of foreign resources ") ended with a lot of bullets in his head.
If Russia was nothing 15 years ago then what was it back in 1968 when Cechoslovakia was invaded? What did the " democratic countries " except from some criticism?

Right. In the past, such typical westerner arrogance would have annoied me. Now all I can do is....laugh, and laugh and laugh. :laugh:

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As has been pointed out time and time again that at the end of WW2 the allies - Russia didn't have the strength to go fighting Russia and pushing them back to Moscow. Then there was this thing called the "Cold War" which involved the USSR and the US and a few other countries having nuclear weapons so the consequences of the US walking in and "liberating" you would have been pretty dire. But glossing over truths like this is fine for you I guess :rolleyes:

Thirst or need for oil.... whatever. It's the same thing. If you'd taken the time to read my post you would see that it doesn't need to be like this. If enough money is invested in renewables and there is a reduction in the amount of energy people waste the NEED for oil and gas will be a lot less and Russia won't be so pumped full of cash. But if your feelings towards Russia are in equilibrium then send your money Eastwards. I'm sure Russia will repay you handsomely :rolleyes: Yet again it would be a dumbarse move for the west to go head to head with Russia in a war, any solution will be one that involves economic sanctions and squeezing the money out of Russia. But if you prefer a nuclear war I'm sure that could also be arranged :)

You're a strange one. In previous threads you went on about the horrors of Soviet occupation. Yet now you're going on about my arrogance. Fine, I'm being arrogant! Of what consequence is this to you? Surely like Ioan you should be worried a bit more about things going back to the way they used to be? If something nasty happens I'll be off to Australia so fast, sadly you probably don't have that option so I hope your leaders aren't as ignorant of the clear and present danger as you are.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Armed conflict? Who said we have to go to war with them?! I'm in no way advocating for WWIII.

What I meant to say is that the western powers should realize that every time that Russia does a "Georgia" or "Tchetchenia" we should not only condemn them because they don't even care about it.
We need to punish them. Throw them out of the G8, move the Winter Olympic Games to another place than Soci, suspend the right for Russian companies to operate outside of Russia. There is a need to show them that we are not afraid even if it's not the case.

And if someone thinks that such measures would trigger a nuclear war, than they are completely wrong. Russian leaders aren't stupid, they aren't working to get fantastically rich just to destroy everything with a war they know they can't win (GB, France or Germany, any of them can win a war against Russia anytime, not to mention USA).

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:up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Those were not their own people, and if they were why were they in Georgia?!
What about China attacking your country when they judge that some of the chines immigrants are in some kind of danger.

Get your head straight, Russia was flexing it's muscles and waiting to see if their whores (i.e the European countries) will dare to stand up again. And they were right, we weren't strong enough.

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Its my understanding that South Ossetia is a breakaway region. Georgia went in to try and re-take control of this region, starting the conflict.

Russia had to react as it had its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetian under an agreement in 1992.

Even the Human Rights Watch have said that eye-witness accounts lead to Georgian fire causing much of the damage in Tskhinvali.

In this instance, Russia is only guilty of being crap at playing the media game.