No loss of momentum...the Indy 500 PR juggernaut rolls on....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbyars

Worked REAL WELL for CCWS and the DP-01, didn't it?

Your problem is that YOU want to try the same old things that have driven two series into bankruptcy. I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed. The 92nd running of the Indy 500 is scheduled for this Sunday, and I have absolutely no doubt there will be a 93rd next year, a 94th year after that, a 95th year after that.....

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

I think you are right. You DON'T understand the business model. You also don't seem to grasp the drawbacks of the business model that is a proven non-starter, twice over.

---

Perhaps the unsuccessfulness of CART is a matter of perspective.

1991:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1991.htm
You could power your car with:
Cosworth DFX
or
Cosworth FS
or
Ilmor "Chevy"
or
Alfa
or
Judd
or Buick

For chassis you could run a:
Lola
or
Penske
or
Truesports (yes, somebody other than Penske or Gurney would still make their own car)

'94:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1994.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Ilmor C
Ilmor D

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard

Half the races that season, outside of the month of May, they sent teams home on Saturday. Too many teams for the pit space or space on track, indicating a lot of teams felt it was the place to be.

'96:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1996.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Cosworth XD
Ilmor "Mercedes"
Honda
Toyota

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard
Eagle

From a motorhead perspective, it's hard to see CART as less successful than what we have now.

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbyars

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

---

No disrespect meant toward you, but the saddest thing whenever I read through piss & moan threads like this... people continue to think of the world only as chocolate vs. vanilla. A wise investment is not choosing the one which doesn't fail, but choosing one which succeeds. Would I buy GM or Ford? Uh... neither. I own Toyota and Hyundai ADR's. I believe in trends. So if I was pressed to invest significant money in an auto racing enterprise, which series would I choose, CART/CCWS or the IRL? Again, neither. I'd have chosen NASCAR. In fact, I did, in a way... when I bought stock in ISC and SMI a decade ago - but I'm not a 24/7/365 NASCAR fan. If the IRL had been a public company, I would have shorted it, just as I shorted MPH in its last two years of life. I made a few bucks on CART on the way up, but I made a lot more on the way down. But that didn't affect my appreciation for CART's style of racing. Why do people choose investments based on emotion? I don't know, but it seldom works out for them.

Though it's not where it once was, the Indy 500 was, is and may continue to be the most watched open wheel race in the U.S. But sponsors aren't restricted to open wheel racing, rather it's a broad universe of sponsorship possibilities. Prior to the split, the Indy 500 was in the Top 10 in the Forbes rankings of Global Event Values. The Daytona 500 was not in the Top 10. By 2007, Indy had dropped out of the Top 10 and Daytona was at #4. Based on ratings decreases and event ranking decreases, I think my IRL short would have worked out pretty well too... though maybe not as well as the one on CART/MPH. For the past decade AOWR has looked like that TV show called The Biggest Loser... is second place in that contest anything to really brag about?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miatanut

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.

---

It'll take years to climb back to that level of "unsuccessfulness", if it ever happens.

Businesses that are truly broken do need to be restructured. Businesses that have general, basic problems usually implement continuous improvement initiatives - they don't set off bombs on every floor. 20/40 hindsight says that the situation between CART and IMS needed a kick of continuous improvement, not a total restructuring. But fixing what isn't really broken is what some people do. And God bless 'em. The France family and Bernie Ecclestone are thankful. I'm sure Bernie's girls aren't cheap to buy Xmas presents for.

The sure fire way to tell if you made the right or wrong choice: if what you end up with, after doing either, is worse than what you had before, ya definly gots it wrong. Or as a pal of mine used to say after a major executive FUBAR: "how's that workin' for ya?" :dozey:

Actually had some coverage of the IndyCars on primetime news last night!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miatanut

Perhaps the unsuccessfulness of CART is a matter of perspective.

1991:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1991.htm
You could power your car with:
Cosworth DFX
or
Cosworth FS
or
Ilmor "Chevy"
or
Alfa
or
Judd
or Buick

For chassis you could run a:
Lola
or
Penske
or
Truesports (yes, somebody other than Penske or Gurney would still make their own car)

'94:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1994.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Ilmor C
Ilmor D

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard

Half the races that season, outside of the month of May, they sent teams home on Saturday. Too many teams for the pit space or space on track, indicating a lot of teams felt it was the place to be.

'96:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1996.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Cosworth XD
Ilmor "Mercedes"
Honda
Toyota

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard
Eagle

From a motorhead perspective, it's hard to see CART as less successful than what we have now.

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.

---

And exactly what happened to all of that once INDY was removed from the picture????? Anyone? Bueller?, anyone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nigelred5

And exactly what happened to all of that once INDY was removed from the picture????? Anyone? Bueller?, anyone?

---

Exactly what happened to Indy when Indy was removed from the CART schedule? Is the glass half full or half empty?

The thing was growing like gangbusters until it was formally split in two.

The big questions are, now that it is reunited, will it again follow the trajectory in increase in fans, teams, sponsorship, etc. that it followed from '79 to '95?
Will we see a schedule full of healthy venues or full of struggling venues in service to a single venue?
Will the sport be run for everyone in the sport or will it be run for the benefit of a chosen few?
Would Il Leone have come here to race if the environment was like we have currently?

I think we know the answers to those questions. I would love to be surprised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbyars

I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed.

---

Well, the bit about "EVERYTHING" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? I believe even "king" George in his own words admitted that there were some missteps along the way. And while CART did declare bankruptcy, which by any measure is certainly a failure, technically CCWS was purchased by the IRL which COULD leave the concept of failure open to interpretation. Clearly, I am quibbling semantics with that. CCWS was most assuredly not a success, but if the investors intent was to build it into something they could sell, then maybe in their eyes it was not a "failure".

Gary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbyars

Worked REAL WELL for CCWS and the DP-01, didn't it?

Your problem is that YOU want to try the same old things that have driven two series into bankruptcy. I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed. The 92nd running of the Indy 500 is scheduled for this Sunday, and I have absolutely no doubt there will be a 93rd next year, a 94th year after that, a 95th year after that.....

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

I think you are right. You DON'T understand the business model. You also don't seem to grasp the drawbacks of the business model that is a proven non-starter, twice over.

---

What has the Irl done so great in 12 years? I can tell you what it has done.Bring open wheel racing to its knees.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CARTDM15

What has the Irl done so great in 12 years?

---

Survived.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbyars

Survived.

---

I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry