The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by airshifter

If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

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Or, in Baggy's case, the employee left because she didn't fit, because she did not feel cleaning toilets as a trained food handler was appropriate, then a clear case for constructive dismissal is very likely to result in a win for said ex employee.

So Ferrari now wants Massa to help Fred win the WDC. If I were Massa i'd say no problem mate i've got your back. :)

http://wba.theoffside.com/files/2010/02/Mutley.gif

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Originally Posted by airshifter

As for your restaurant, fully accepting that your job decription does cover all normal activities such as cleaning, you still aren't making the proper comparison. If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

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Not only that, he would be also fined for trying to force an employee to perform unlawful activities and for firing the employee because he/she refused to perform an unlawful activity. That would be 3 times braking the rules in one move, at least in Europe, maybe in Canada they don't care if a food handler has to clean up the kitchen and toilets too, however I doubt it.

Ferrari can not fire Massa if he refuses to obey illegal team orders.

Not to mention that Massa's manager is Todt's son, which further complicates the situation.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Ferrari cost themselves a fine, due to the fact that they manipulated the drivers changing position. After creating a handicap for Massa, they declared Alonso quicker and made it clear that Massa was to yeild the position.

As for your restaurant, fully accepting that your job decription does cover all normal activities such as cleaning, you still aren't making the proper comparison. If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

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Firstly , shifter , had Smedley and Massa done as directed , nobody would have known specifically that it had been done .
The engine performance level changes came after two reminders that Alonso was faster .

As to my restaurant employee , there was no violation of food handling regs .
They simply didn't want to do the job I asked of them .
It's not difficult to understand that I didn't want to pay someone to not do the job , when others are happy to take thier turn , is it ?

Lots of others would drive that car , if he decides he doesn't want to drive for the team .

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Or, in Baggy's case, the employee left because she didn't fit, because she did not feel cleaning toilets as a trained food handler was appropriate, then a clear case for constructive dismissal is very likely to result in a win for said ex employee.

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That might be the case if she hadn't known it was part of the job .

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Originally Posted by ioan

Not only that, he would be also fined for trying to force an employee to perform unlawful activities and for firing the employee because he/she refused to perform an unlawful activity. That would be 3 times braking the rules in one move, at least in Europe, maybe in Canada they don't care if a food handler has to clean up the kitchen and toilets too, however I doubt it.

Ferrari can not fire Massa if he refuses to obey illegal team orders.

Not to mention that Massa's manager is Todt's son, which further complicates the situation.

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Part of the 3 day course people take to be qualified as a food handler deals with how to wash one's hands .
Every food handler must be very diligent to prevent contamination .

I asked nothing illegal of my employee .

Similarly , Massa was told he was slower , which is a directive to work for the team .
He made to choice to act for the team , and despite having done it in the most obvious way possible , did it so as not to be fired , for refusing to do as asked .

And , had he done it the "legal" way(ie - not so obviously) , they would not have been fined .

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Originally Posted by Rodster

So Ferrari now wants Massa to help Fred win the WDC. If I were Massa i'd say no problem mate i've got your back. :)

http://wba.theoffside.com/files/2010/02/Mutley.gif

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I find that public statement very strange.....if you want your driver to perform and how, you tell him in private. The verbiage was very much like some sort of PR campaign to permit ferrari to replace him without fan backlash...see we told him and he did not. So now may the kube will do it.... It also smacks of a very public broadcast of see here, we are issuing team orders, and DOING IT IN PUBLIC AND IN YOUR FACE

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Originally Posted by markabilly

I find that public statement very strange.....if you want your driver to perform and how, you tell him in private. The verbiage was very much like some sort of PR campaign to permit ferrari to replace him without fan backlash...see we told him and he did not. So now may the kube will do it.... It also smacks of a very public broadcast of see here, we are issuing team orders, and DOING IT IN PUBLIC AND IN YOUR FACE

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That's why it would have been in Massa's best interest to give the middle finger to Ferrari and MAKE Fred pass him. If he was questioned as to why he held up Fred I would say they wanted me to let him through. Then an investigation would have ensued which would have shown Ferrari had asked Felipe to slow down his car while letting Fred come back up to full power.

Felipe is the only reason I still follow Ferrari, once he's gone it's anybody but them. :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The engine performance level changes came after two reminders that Alonso was faster .

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Did they though? How long had Massa been on a 'lower' setting that Alonso. And why did Alonso need a boost if he is the faster driver?

IMO Ferrari has taken on the personality of their Star driver Alonso, i.e. say anything do anything as long as we win.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Similarly , Massa was told he was slower , which is a directive to work for the team .
He made to choice to act for the team , and despite having done it in the most obvious way possible , did it so as not to be fired , for refusing to do as asked .

And , had he done it the "legal" way(ie - not so obviously) , they would not have been fined .

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Baggy, that directive is ILLEGAL under the present sporting regulations.

And that's not everything. In order to make it even worse Massa was ordered to run less revs while Alonso was on full revs.

What Ferrari did in the German GP is not defensible as legal under the current regulations.

Remember 2007? and what Alonso did to his team that year? He went to the FIA and claimed the team are disadvantaging him and he was assigned a FIA commissary to check that he got equal opportunities to his team mate. In Germany he was whining on the radio for the team to use team orders when he already had a car advantage handed to him. He's the biggest prick in F1 and Ferrari F1 became his whore, which makes it quite obvious why people stopped supporting them.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Did they though? How long had Massa been on a 'lower' setting that Alonso. And why did Alonso need a boost if he is the faster driver?

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Exactly. Mr 'six tenths' is just a hysterical primadonna unless Domenicali does what Briatore did for ages and handicaps his team mates.

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Originally Posted by Rodster

That's why it would have been in Massa's best interest to give the middle finger to Ferrari and MAKE Fred pass him. If he was questioned as to why he held up Fred I would say they wanted me to let him through. Then an investigation would have ensued which would have shown Ferrari had asked Felipe to slow down his car while letting Fred come back up to full power.

Felipe is the only reason I still follow Ferrari, once he's gone it's anybody but them. :s mokin:

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Same here.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Exactly. Mr 'six tenths' is just a hysterical primadonna unless Domenicali does what Briatore did for ages and handicaps his team mates.

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That's why I hope Flavio gets to run Ferrari because it will complete the circle. Ferrari has become the black hole for unethical individuals. Massa deserves better so does Smedley. I hope they both leave and take their toys to Sauber.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Baggy, that directive is ILLEGAL under the present sporting regulations.

And that's not everything. In order to make it even worse Massa was ordered to run less revs while Alonso was on full revs.

What Ferrari did in the German GP is not defensible as legal under the current regulations.

Remember 2007? and what Alonso did to his team that year? He went to the FIA and claimed the team are disadvantaging him and he was assigned a FIA commissary to check that he got equal opportunities to his team mate. In Germany he was whining on the radio for the team to use team orders when he already had a car advantage handed to him. He's the biggest prick in F1 and Ferrari F1 became his whore, which makes it quite obvious why people stopped supporting them.

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Heikki was told he was slower .

Same words .

And , he dealt with it with dignity , and was lauded for it .
He worked for the team , and capitulated upon first request .

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Originally Posted by ioan

Exactly. Mr 'six tenths' is just a hysterical primadonna unless Domenicali does what Briatore did for ages and handicaps his team mates.

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Ioan , my friend , it seems as though you are just now coming to understand the basic strategy that the reds have used for many years .

They are often known to determine very early in the year , the driver they believe to be the one they will ask to go for the title .
Cruel as it may seem , they have decided to back Alonso to win for them , and Felipe , if he is truly an honourable driver , will play the role of the dutiful number two , and help Ferrari to win both titles .

That he was told his team mate was faster in a sentimental race for him is doubly cruel , but , in the end , it is the championship for which they all compete .
To lose the game , having gone the sentimental route would be foolish in the most cruel way .

It's pragmatic , and sometimes it hurts , but it is the Ferrari way .

The mouse had his chance .
Pouty mouse now needs to go , having shown his true colours .

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Originally Posted by Rodster

That's why it would have been in Massa's best interest to give the middle finger to Ferrari and MAKE Fred pass him. If he was questioned as to why he held up Fred I would say they wanted me to let him through. Then an investigation would have ensued which would have shown Ferrari had asked Felipe to slow down his car while letting Fred come back up to full power.

Felipe is the only reason I still follow Ferrari, once he's gone it's anybody but them. :s mokin:

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So , you must actually think that , because team orders are banned , they are never used ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Ioan , my friend , it seems as though you are just now coming to understand the basic strategy that the reds have used for many years .

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Baggy, I get the strategy, however I hate the whining of men.

well how about quitting the whining yourself a bit then too ;) :laugh:

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

well how about quitting the whining yourself a bit then too ;) :laugh:

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Looks like you should take up your own advice then. :p

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

So , you must actually think that , because team orders are banned , they are never used ?

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Oh they're used alright except they blatantly made comments that both drivers were equal when we all knew it was a lie. Fred came to the team with the understanding that HE WAS NUMERO UNO. And yet Ferrari continued the farce that both drivers were equal to win the title. That was not the intent Fred signed with Ferrari. All parties knew he was always #1.

So if that's the case, just man up and tell Felipe we don't think you're good enough to win the title for Ferrari and we know Fred is faster and a much better driver than you. Nope they kept the chirade going that both drivers were equal until Fred nearly ran Massa off the road trying to get into the pits first. First clue Fred was #1 because they excused his actions.

If you are going to use team orders then call a spade a spade and say Fred you're the better driver and Felipe you're not as good, sorry but you're good enough to be a team player. All F1 fans knew that was going to be the case when we saw how Fred behaved when Lewis gave Fred all he could handle and more.

If this was openly said I would have zero problems with what happened in Germany. That's the way Flavio runs his teams, Ferrari insisted it runs it's team with equal status.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Firstly , shifter , had Smedley and Massa done as directed , nobody would have known specifically that it had been done .
The engine performance level changes came after two reminders that Alonso was faster .

As to my restaurant employee , there was no violation of food handling regs .
They simply didn't want to do the job I asked of them .
It's not difficult to understand that I didn't want to pay someone to not do the job , when others are happy to take thier turn , is it ?

Lots of others would drive that car , if he decides he doesn't want to drive for the team .

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You didn't answer my question. If you directed an employee to violate a code or law should they perform that task or refuse to perform it? This is what Ferrari did to Rob and Felipe.

As for your employee, I was simply using your restaurant as an example, not questioning your actions in any way. No offense intended.


I'm sure there are other drivers willing to be #2 drivers and ignore the rules of F1 for a Ferrari paycheck. But there are just as probably teams that would have picked up Felipe had he chose to flip them off when passing the pit wall, and driven the car to a win against the "faster" Alonso.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

You didn't answer my question. If you directed an employee to violate a code or law should they perform that task or refuse to perform it? This is what Ferrari did to Rob and Felipe.

As for your employee, I was simply using your restaurant as an example, not questioning your actions in any way. No offense intended.


I'm sure there are other drivers willing to be #2 drivers and ignore the rules of F1 for a Ferrari paycheck. But there are just as probably teams that would have picked up Felipe had he chose to flip them off when passing the pit wall, and driven the car to a win against the "faster" Alonso.

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Hey just a point?? They cheated for how many years??? All the ones the Chin was there. Everybody violated the code. So are we throwing Ferrari out of F1 - Hell no - Ferrari is the anchor of F1 Who would you rather have run Ferrari - Penske or Flavio - just what I thought and we don't need a poll for this question :)

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Hey just a point?? They cheated for how many years??? All the ones the Chin was there. Everybody violated the code. So are we throwing Ferrari out of F1 - Hell no - Ferrari is the anchor of F1 Who would you rather have run Ferrari - Penske or Flavio - just what I thought and we don't need a poll for this question :)

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They didn't cheat up to Austria 2002, are you ever going to understand what goes on around you, or your hatred does blind you completely.

I like how you keep asking and answering your self-righteous questions, this does prove many things. :D

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Originally Posted by ioan

Baggy, that directive is ILLEGAL under the present sporting regulations.

And that's not everything. In order to make it even worse Massa was ordered to run less revs while Alonso was on full revs.

What Ferrari did in the German GP is not defensible as legal under the current regulations.

Remember 2007? and what Alonso did to his team that year? He went to the FIA and claimed the team are disadvantaging him and he was assigned a FIA commissary to check that he got equal opportunities to his team mate. In Germany he was whining on the radio for the team to use team orders when he already had a car advantage handed to him. He's the biggest prick in F1 and Ferrari F1 became his whore, which makes it quite obvious why people stopped supporting them.

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So for all the years when Ferrari focused and helped your beloved M. Schumacher and penalised poor R. Barrichello it was ok...now that Ferrari are doing the same choosing Alonso as 1st driver and asking/ordering Massa to help him, it's not ok any more ? :confused: :rolleyes:

The double moral I am reading in this thread disguistes me :down:

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Originally Posted by pino

So for all the years when Ferrari focused and helped your beloved M. Schumacher and penalised poor R. Barrichello it was ok...now that Ferrari are doing the same choosing Alonso as 1st driver and asking/ordering Massa to help him, it's not ok any more ? :confused: :rolleyes:

The double moral I am reading in this thread disguistes me :down:

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The big difference, though, is that team orders never used to be illegal. Ferrari chose to make Schumacher their number one, drivers like Irvine and Barrichello knew the score in advance. Now Massa, bless him, beleives he has equality when it's plain for the world to see that he does not.

I was no fan when McLaren used them to help Hakkinen at the expense of Coulthard, but at least it was allowable under the rules.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Baggy, I get the strategy, however I hate the whining of men.

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Then , why do you like Massa ?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

You didn't answer my question. If you directed an employee to violate a code or law should they perform that task or refuse to perform it? This is what Ferrari did to Rob and Felipe.

As for your employee, I was simply using your restaurant as an example, not questioning your actions in any way. No offense intended.


I'm sure there are other drivers willing to be #2 drivers and ignore the rules of F1 for a Ferrari paycheck. But there are just as probably teams that would have picked up Felipe had he chose to flip them off when passing the pit wall, and driven the car to a win against the "faster" Alonso.

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Had they done exactly as suggested , they would not have been breaking any rule .
The words were as directed , but delivered in a way that brought suspicion .

Such is the stupidity of the rule .
They never said "move over and let him pass" .

Of course I wouldn't think of asking an employee to break the law , but this was an example of two employees that did when directed to do otherwise .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Had they done exactly as suggested , they would not have been breaking any rule .
The words were as directed , but delivered in a way that brought suspicion .

Such is the stupidity of the rule .
They never said "move over and let him pass" .

Of course I wouldn't think of asking an employee to break the law , but this was an example of two employees that did when directed to do otherwise .

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I don't think they were directed to do otherwise. It was clear what they were directed to do without a specific order.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

The big difference, though, is that team orders never used to be illegal. Ferrari chose to make Schumacher their number one, drivers like Irvine and Barrichello knew the score in advance. Now Massa, bless him, beleives he has equality when it's plain for the world to see that he does not.

I was no fan when McLaren used them to help Hakkinen at the expense of Coulthard, but at least it was allowable under the rules.

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The silly part , though , Dave , is that it is still alowable under the rules if it is done correctly .
Only when rogue employees do the "poor me" dance does it get penalized .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The silly part , though , Dave , is that it is still alowable under the rules if it is done correctly .
Only when rogue employees do the "poor me" dance does it get penalized .

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Exactly, because said employee was told he was an equal to his co-worker when he figured out he was lied to. When the light bulb comes on is usually when employees go from happy campers to pissed off. ;)

Again if I were Massa I would have shot Ferrari the bird and made Fred pass me and would have made it difficult at that even with a handicapped car. I would have left the team with a sense of pride knowing I was as good as Fred.

Fred's mantra, is he likes a teammate who pushes him to go faster but never to take a win away from him even if it means telling his team to tell his teammate to back off or let him through.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I don't think they were directed to do otherwise. It was clear what they were directed to do without a specific order.

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Had Smedley delivered the message calmly , and without the tone he used , which suggested he was under duress , they would not have broken any rule .
Had Massa done as suggested , when first suggested , they would not have broken any rule .
As they said when first grilled , Felipe had made the decision .

That was the decision they had wanted when they made the suggestion the first time . That is the "otherwise" to which I refer .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Had Smedley delivered the message calmly , and without the tone he used , which suggested he was under duress , they would not have broken any rule .
Had Massa done as suggested , when first suggested , they would not have broken any rule .
As they said when first grilled , Felipe had made the decision .

That was the decision they had wanted when they made the suggestion the first time . That is the "otherwise" to which I refer .

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So, what you mean is;

Had Massa broken the rule on first asking, it'd be all fine and dandy?

What was Smeldley's tone on the radio transmissions we did not hear?

You have to remember that Alonso's superior speed was engineered by the team.........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You have to remember that Alonso's superior speed was engineered by the team.........

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Geez, you had to go ahead and bring that up again, tsk tsk. :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by Rodster

Geez, you had to go ahead and bring that up again, tsk tsk. :s mokin:

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Well, had they not broke the rules, we'd never get to hear about these behind the scenes shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Well, had they not broke the rules, we'd never get to hear about these behind the scenes shenanigans.

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QFT, the whole thing is a farce Fred included. That's why i'll say it again bring in Flavio so at least we all know where the drivers stand with respect to their team, i.e. Alonso #1 and anybody else #2. :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by Rodster

QFT, the whole thing is a farce Fred included. That's why i'll say it again bring in Flavio so at least we all know where the drivers stand with respect to their team, i.e. Alonso #1 and anybody else #2. :s mokin:

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What I am now convinced of, is that there was a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans orchestrated by Alonso during his short stay at McLaren.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

What I am now convinced of, is that there was a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans orchestrated by Alonso during his short stay at McLaren.

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You don't need to go any further than Monaco 2007. Remember Lewis was leading Fred and that abruptly changed and Fred took the win. Remember the press briefing where Lewis sort of looked like Felipe after the Germany race. And Fred said he told the team to tell Lewis "let me through". And Lewis had the look like he was about to kill somebody. Another example was Indy same year and Fred was so pissed at Lewis leading the race which he won btw that Fred in anger drove his car towards the pit wall because Lewis wouldn't hand over the lead.

Look I don't question the skill of Alonso as a driver. He ranks as one of the most skill on the grid and has a killer instinct to go with it. My problem like I mentioned earlier is he ONLY wants a teammate as a benchmark to make him go faster. If that teammate takes wins away from him like Lewis (Rookie) did or Felipe, he feels threatened. If he's as good as everyone makes him out to be then you shouldn't need anyone's help to win the race on your own.

Now wrt Ferrari, I truly believe that between 2007-2009 THERE WAS EQUAL STATUS at Ferrari because Kimi didn't care about who was #1 or #2 and Felipe almost won it in 2008.

Given that press release, I think Massa's stay at Ferrari will not be much longer, and if he lines up another competitive drive before the end of the season, then we may see Massa not so willing to be in the role of move over, red rover

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Given that press release, I think Massa's stay at Ferrari will not be much longer, and if he lines up another competitive drive before the end of the season, then we may see Massa not so willing to be in the role of move over, red rover

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Doesn't surprise me at all which is why Massa would have been happier with himself if he waved the middle finger as he drove by the pit wall and took home the win. As I said before Ferrari has taken on the personality of Alonso.

I don't expect Ferrari to make a move or hint about a Massa move until the season is over just for that reason alone.