Should f1 run coupes?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I guess we'll let the mods be the judge in that one then.

Heat and kitchen, heat and kitchen.......

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Listen, I have no problem with the heat in here, but I object to someone insulting me and then complaining when I'm not even insulting them.

to be honest I think Retro and Daniel are both being prats, and having met Retro in real life i can confirm he can be one then too ;)

as for canopies I have major misgivings about extraction with no doors, especially when upside down. I also have an issue with a mechanism for the canopiy to be ejected after an accident given that this could mean the canopy itself could become additional debris evither from an accident or if the system fails and ejects on the track. the device itself could therefore become the major contributor of a whole new accident.

the profile is an issue with the narrow cockpit, with visibility issues if its too think and also the rain/oil/bugs issue, it can't be wiped by the driver, it can't have tear off's removed and would need some sort of cleaning device (wipers), but that wouldn't celar bugs and oil, becoming a major visibility risk.

Whilst it might prevent some head to object incidents, these are very rare, although normally pretty serious, i think there is serious potential for it to create more issues than it solves.

then you do have a historical/formula issue, with the cars being open cockpitted. and i do belive this sort of thing should be mandated in lower formulae if anywhere where the cars are arguably less strong and run on less safe tracks. its not an F1 issue, its an all open cockpit cars issue.

I also fail to see how McNish's accident was worse or more dangerous to a driver than say Kubica's in canada the other year. Both driver survived largely unharmed, on in a coupe one not.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

to be honest I think Retro and Daniel are both being prats, and having met Retro in real life i can confirm he can be one then too ;)

as for canopies I have major misgivings about extraction with no doors, especially when upside down. I also have an issue with a mechanism for the canopiy to be ejected after an accident given that this could mean the canopy itself could become additional debris evither from an accident or if the system fails and ejects on the track. the device itself could therefore become the major contributor of a whole new accident.

the profile is an issue with the narrow cockpit, with visibility issues if its too think and also the rain/oil/bugs issue, it can't be wiped by the driver, it can't have tear off's removed and would need some sort of cleaning device (wipers), but that wouldn't celar bugs and oil, becoming a major visibility risk.

Whilst it might prevent some head to object incidents, these are very rare, although normally pretty serious, i think there is serious potential for it to create more issues than it solves.

then you do have a historical/formula issue, with the cars being open cockpitted. and i do belive this sort of thing should be mandated in lower formulae if anywhere where the cars are arguably less strong and run on less safe tracks. its not an F1 issue, its an all open cockpit cars issue.

I also fail to see how McNish's accident was worse or more dangerous to a driver than say Kubica's in canada the other year. Both driver survived largely unharmed, on in a coupe one not.

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That'll be a no then? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Robinho

to be honest I think Retro and Daniel are both being prats, and having met Retro in real life i can confirm he can be one then too ;)

as for canopies I have major misgivings about extraction with no doors, especially when upside down. I also have an issue with a mechanism for the canopiy to be ejected after an accident given that this could mean the canopy itself could become additional debris evither from an accident or if the system fails and ejects on the track. the device itself could therefore become the major contributor of a whole new accident.

the profile is an issue with the narrow cockpit, with visibility issues if its too think and also the rain/oil/bugs issue, it can't be wiped by the driver, it can't have tear off's removed and would need some sort of cleaning device (wipers), but that wouldn't celar bugs and oil, becoming a major visibility risk.

Whilst it might prevent some head to object incidents, these are very rare, although normally pretty serious, i think there is serious potential for it to create more issues than it solves.

then you do have a historical/formula issue, with the cars being open cockpitted. and i do belive this sort of thing should be mandated in lower formulae if anywhere where the cars are arguably less strong and run on less safe tracks. its not an F1 issue, its an all open cockpit cars issue.

I also fail to see how McNish's accident was worse or more dangerous to a driver than say Kubica's in canada the other year. Both driver survived largely unharmed, on in a coupe one not.

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Fair points. I apologise if I've been a prat, but I really do just want to discuss the subject.

As I said above, I think we've reached the limits of what talking on a forum can achieve on this subject, the FIA certainly won't put this into place if the other issues that it could potentially cause, haven't been sorted. One thing I don't quite agree with is how a canopy makes extraction of a driver from an upside down car any worse. With HANS there is no way a driver can get out of an upside down car these days anyway. I'm not a canopyphile or anything, I don't just want to see F1 cars with canopies on because it gives me my jollies, I honestly feel that over the last 10 years or so there have been quite a few near misses. I mean Schuey nearly got his head taken off last year in the final race of the season in the first few corners if I remember right.

I for one am glad that the FIA is looking into this, it may turn out that they can make a workable solution including a canopy or a windscreen or it may turn out that it's not possible. But hell I'm really happy it's being looked into.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

That'll be a no then? :laugh:

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yep, that just about covers it, but it was a qualifed one.

all that said i dread the day we all watch a driver get beheaded on live TV when the freak accident noone thinks will ever happen finally does. there are probably a number of drivers who'd still be with us still too (thinking Tom Pryce, Senna, Henry Surtees to name a few) if this sort of protection were available.

put it this way, if they can come up with an effective solution that kept the core of F1 the same and protected the drivers without creating new problems i certainly wouldn't stop watching F1 because of it

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Originally Posted by Robinho

yep, that just about covers it, but it was a qualifed one.

all that said i dread the day we all watch a driver get beheaded on live TV when the freak accident noone thinks will ever happen finally does. there are probably a number of drivers who'd still be with us still too (thinking Tom Pryce, Senna, Henry Surtees to name a few) if this sort of protection were available.

put it this way, if they can come up with an effective solution that kept the core of F1 the same and protected the drivers without creating new problems i certainly wouldn't stop watching F1 because of it

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Or, if it is the marshall that is beheaded trying to assist a trapped driver and the canopy ejects.........

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Originally Posted by Robinho

yep, that just about covers it, but it was a qualifed one.

all that said i dread the day we all watch a driver get beheaded on live TV when the freak accident noone thinks will ever happen finally does. there are probably a number of drivers who'd still be with us still too (thinking Tom Pryce, Senna, Henry Surtees to name a few) if this sort of protection were available.

put it this way, if they can come up with an effective solution that kept the core of F1 the same and protected the drivers without creating new problems i certainly wouldn't stop watching F1 because of it

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That is my view too. I'll repeat myself for the thousandth time here, but I don't want to see any sort of "solution" implemented before any new risk factors are evaluated and accounted for :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Fair points. I apologise if I've been a prat, but I really do just want to discuss the subject.

As I said above, I think we've reached the limits of what talking on a forum can achieve on this subject, the FIA certainly won't put this into place if the other issues that it could potentially cause, haven't been sorted. One thing I don't quite agree with is how a canopy makes extraction of a driver from an upside down car any worse. With HANS there is no way a driver can get out of an upside down car these days anyway. I'm not a canopyphile or anything, I don't just want to see F1 cars with canopies on because it gives me my jollies, I honestly feel that over the last 10 years or so there have been quite a few near misses. I mean Schuey nearly got his head taken off last year in the final race of the season in the first few corners if I remember right.

I for one am glad that the FIA is looking into this, it may turn out that they can make a workable solution including a canopy or a windscreen or it may turn out that it's not possible. But hell I'm really happy it's being looked into.

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but the HANS only connects the drivers to their own shoulders doesn't it. it may limit their head movements but it shouldn't stop them getting out of the car whether its upside down or not. its the same for anyone with the HANS device in any catergory, unless i've misunderstood your point?

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Originally Posted by Robinho

but the HANS only connects the drivers to their own shoulders doesn't it. it may limit their head movements but it shouldn't stop them getting out of the car whether its upside down or not. its the same for anyone with the HANS device in any catergory, unless i've misunderstood your point?

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HANS is to stop severe whiplash and is effectively a yoke that rests on the shoulders and is tethered to the helmet.

I think.....

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Originally Posted by Robinho

but the HANS only connects the drivers to their own shoulders doesn't it. it may limit their head movements but it shouldn't stop them getting out of the car whether its upside down or not. its the same for anyone with the HANS device in any catergory, unless i've misunderstood your point?

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It connects the helmet to the HANS device which means that the drivers ability to bend their neck is lessened. I remember a little while after the HANS device became mandatory in the WRC, V8 supercars, F1 and so on, Marcos Ambrose rolled has car upside down into a gravel trap and had great difficulty getting out. I can't remember which race or which year it was, but nevertheless it hindered his ability to get out and I don't think it makes it easy for a driver to get out of an upside down F1 car, that said I think we wouldn't have Kubica here after his accident in Canada so overall HANS is a very good thing.