From out of nowhere
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From out of nowhere
The problem with this is that the Hyundai was looking slow at the beginning of the development (and got a bit better later though, but still wasn't really good), but the Yaris looks slow about one month before the start of the homologation process. If they can pull the car up in the remaining month performance- and reliability-wise, then OK, otherwise they seem to have come to a standstill. Don't get me wrong, I wish them all the best, but as many others are saying, the signs are not the best. So yes, more than likely it will be a learning year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Hanninen seems the obvious choice of the freely available drivers with more experience. Let's see the others.
Weird no one noticed Makinen finding his old co driver a gig.....:devil::devil:
You seems have been affected by all that´s been said on this forum. Or you experienced all that yourself? You seen tests on sight? You know which drivers to come? You assesed the new structure of the team? based on comon knowledge, what makes you think location harms the project? Where a flie in the office when discussions were made between Tommi and his emploies?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I wouldn´t think so.
So much more nice if we look forward to Toyotas commitment and hopes by being more positive. Wasn´t long ago everyones highest wish was more factoryteams in WRC. By bashing before they even competed looks foolish to me.
Sorry? I have nothing more to say about the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
With the current useless team of amateurs on all levels Toyota should be happy if they flop Mini style, but i think we are dealing with a Suzuki kind of flop.
Wise. Me too. Let´s wait and see before we talk further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Excellent newsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images...737ca1126.jpegQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
http://s5.postimg.org/ld57v185j/r_F.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Criticism is needed in an open society but there’s a limit: the insult. Calling garbage dog to an ex WRC champion or autist to the world biggest car company chairman may appear as bold soundbites, but they’re nothing more than useless insults; like so many others produced by the forum troll.
On the other hand, it’s really puzzling to see genuine rally fans making so many negative prejudgments over TMR/Toyota WRC project.
What’s wrong in replacing a structure that wasn’t delivering their main goal, a Le Mans win, for other that was purposely developed having WRC in mind? What’s wrong on choosing an ex WRC champion, and succeed rally tuner, to manage that new structure? What’s wrong about creating the new structure over the manager’s existing rally base? What’s wrong about having their development driver on the team first year line up, probably in the company of a young promising driver? If we look in a reasonable and fair way we may actually see that there’s nothing wrong.
VW did a tremendous job setting a higher WRC competitive standard and new teams are automatically measured by it, but if others manus can’t immediately comply must we consider them a waste? Should we only value the qualities of the sport leader and reject their rival’s efforts? All competitors deserve to be praised; today’s underdog can become tomorrow’s champion.
Besides all that, a critic should have some achievements in the subject of critics, am I right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Great post Rally Power
nice post............
We should support them instead of criticising them always.
They are new and they might surprise all so keep calm and enjoy.
Support them !
Because it frustrates the hell out of Rally fans to see something being set-up which has so much history and pedigree with a huge element of amateurism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
VW set a benchmark by taking small steps with a plan, signing Ogier without a car and testing with the Fabia for a year.
Mini when it was set-up used Prodrive who had significant WRC experience and signed Sordo and Meeke. That car was also competitive but unfortunately there was no budget.
Hyundai signed Neuville and Sordo to develop the car and used Atkinson (history in the WRC), Hanninen (history in the WRC), and Paddon in the third car. They also assembled a team and stucture which had no partizan attachments, based in Germany with an International well funded team being pulled together.
The thing which bugs people about the Toyota approach is it is very hard to win the pole jump when you are an old, short and fat athlete using the wrong pole in the middle of winter.
It just doesn't feel set-up for success...
...and now we'd only need to know, what is this "huge element of amateurism".Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
Ofcourse VW set a benchmark, but how come it's so hard to understand, that there was no "Ogier" for Tommi to sign? Tommi tried to sign Meeke first, didn't he? I guess that was amateurish as well then...
Don't know for sure what the mix is at Hyundai for example, but one third of the Toyota staff are not Finns... so yeah, "partizan attachments" indeed ;)
That's a good point, there really was no Ogier to sign.
Back in 2011/2012, there was only a Citroen, based around Loeb, and a poorly performing Ford team, there were no other WRC options for Ogier to move to.
The same can be said for a lot of the top design and engineering minds in rallying, most likely.
Now, as seen by Neuville and Meeke's decisions, there are already three teams that are making competitive offers in the market and, arguably, not enough top line drivers to sign for them.
Yeah, I agree, Toyota don't appear to be doing this in the most professional way and part of me wishes it was still TMG running it, but they've taken a brave leap at a difficult time to do so too.
To reinforce what I mean about the amateur structure where a bunch of mates are employed in a shed in the Finnish Forest with Partizan attachments - From the Hyundai Motorsport Website:Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Established on 19 December 2012, Hyundai Motorsport GmbH (HMSG) is responsible for Hyundai’s global motorsport activities and primarily for its World Rally Championship programme.
Based in Alzenau, Germany, the company has engineered Hyundai’s return to the WRC with a bespoke team of skilled staff who are constantly developing the WRC-specification i20.
The facility, which covers 8,200m², is split into an office area (2,125m²) and a workshop space (5,878m²). This area is where around 200 employees develop and support Hyundai’s entry into the WRC.
Ideal premises to set-up a WRC team
The workshop is divided into 10 assembly bays. With an engine workshop, sub-assembly areas, electronics, body shop, stores, design office and administration area, it leaves nothing to be desired. The factory is also fully fitted and operational with quality control, engine dynamics and a suspension test bench - offering the ideal premises to set up a WRC team.
The Way To Go
Located in the heart of Europe (Rhine-Main area) holds logistical advantages
The facility is only 50 km from Frankfurt international airport, and its convenient motorway connection provides easy access to key suppliers within Continental Europe. Close to other Hyundai facilities such as Hyundai Motor Europe (HME) in Offenbach and Hyundai Motor Technical Centre (HMETC) in Ruesselsheim, Alzenau is the perfect location for Hyundai Motorsport.
And now from the TMG website:
THE HOME OF HIGH PERFORMANCE
Toyota Motorsport GmbH (TMG) is a unique high-performance testing and development facility located in the centre of Europe; in Cologne, Germany.
Specialising in high technology, TMG is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Toyota Motor Corporation and offers its services to external clients as well as members of the Toyota family.
Constructed to the highest standards with no compromise on quality or functionality, the spacious 30,000m² facility and its highly-skilled staff of around 200 offer a remarkable range of machines, facilities and expertise.
From its roots at the pinnacle of world motorsport, TMG has developed into a one-stop shop for specialised services, not just from the automotive world but from most sectors.
We offer individually-tailored solutions to enhance your next project, from full project fulfilment to specific services – all under one roof at TMG, the home of high performance.
Check out our varied and flexible solutions using the navigation bar above. Inside each section you will find a detailed description of our services, including the specifications of our specialist technology.
Now, I still can't get my head around how a company which already has a track record of success in the sport, with an existing facility that has all the requirements including a strategic location would set something else up in a shed in Finland...
If Toyoda wanted Tommi as team principal then fine but to duplicate everything is crazy.
Don't You think that if the drivers actually believed in Toyota success they would be willing to switch teams just like Ogier did with VW or Neuville did with Hyundai? They both went into unknown waters, especially Ogier who had to compete first year with S2000 car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Just reading the ToyotaGazoo "Our Story" made my eyes bleed at the FinJapanglish...
http://toyotagazooracing.com/our-story/
We've actually got Jarmo Lehtinen joining us on stage next Wednesday night at http://www.thecrw.co.uk/rally-forum-2016
Going to be interesting as he's in the segment directly after Malcolm Wilson, so two perspectives on team management.
Anyone seen any contract length for Hanninen? Have to assume it's a one-year deal.
What Tommi's team have in 2017 is a 'prove it' year. I'm not sure Hanninen is ultimately the guy to do that - but I can't fault Tommi signing him at all. They needed someone who was effectively out of contract and could test the car all year and gain familiarity. Meeke didn't want it, Hirvonen didn't want it. Solberg/Loeb - who knows? Not sure if they were even asked, but the point is there were so few drivers who fitted that spec.
Anyone else you sign can't 'officially' drive your car until after the season so Tommi was backed into a corner. Plus he now has a willing 'team guy' in his driver squad. Which can be beneficial over a diva top-three talent in some ways when you're getting started.
But this is a prove it year. So the biggest question for me is who drives the third car? Do they go the mercenary route and take a guy like Ostberg with a bit of money. All he will prove is your reliability. When really you need someone to showcase speed.
From TGR press release:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
He has signed a one-year contract, with an option to extend beyond 2017.
Teemu / Rallirinki @HartusvuoriWRC
Local newspaper @ksmlfi turn to visit Mäkinen's @TGR_WRC garage. They are currently building three on six chassises to start 2017. #WRC2017
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvHdHrXWEAEoT34.jpg
They are building 3 cars to every driver, MC and SWE with 1st, MEX with 2nd, 3rd is spare one. Before MC they will have 6 cars ready.
They have 4 cars now, all test versions, competition model will be different, wider from door area etc.
Kalle Rovanperä has tested twice.
Total 12000km driven already, Hänninen 6000km, Tommi 3000km
Work with Japanese and you can understand it. My boss is Japanese ;) The most important thing is relationship another thing is good connections between Japan and their facilities in Europe. The shortest and the most comfortable flight you can take from Japan is to Helsinki. Basically you go to sleep (in the evening) in business class and you wake up in the morning;) add several more hours to mid Germany, and double it with return flight.. and now multiply it with staff number;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
This is very-very clear to me. At least 10 Japanese researchers visit our small institute every year and only one of them has bothered to proceed to centra Europe.
Good info. A lot of cars and kilometres. But am I correct - still 0km of dedicated tarmac testing?Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I hope You are wrong. I can't imagine that to be true with just few weeks remaining before homologation process starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
So why did they build some years ago state of art facilities to Cologne????????????????There is no need for good communications between toyota and their wec team???????????????????????????cause i think they are not located in finland!!!
It's the old F1 siteQuote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
i know, but my question is still
before being the f1 headquarters were the tte headquarters,no need for communication that era?(for the rally team in the beginning and for the the f1 team later)
Formula One and Team Toyota Europe (remember the 'whistling pigs"Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
I wish them luck. Yes, they are doing things different to some of the other teams. But it's a different era to when VW came in and dominated and I can only imagine the Japanese approach will be different to the Germans.
Juho will hopefully finally get the chance to prove he should be in the WRC. If he fails, he is only a 1 year risk to Toyota. That seems sensible and only a fair reward for his commitment to the team.
Hopefully they surprise us with one of their other drivers (Evan's for example). But surely most important in the first year is to get some fast hands behind the wheel who know the car well who are confident to push the limits and then we will see how the car stacks up. I don't think anyone expects the Yaris to be the fastest car on day 1. But I hope they can at least put up a good fight and develop quickly.
Selecting Juho as one of the drivers and signing the contract for one year only may just mean that 2017 will still be their development year.
I hope they will be competitive, but...
The fact that they have not been able to sign any top names, tells me that the insiders don't believe they will be able to build a competitive car for next year. New travel fast and the managers don't want to sign their driver to a bad car if possible. Even Hyundai got established drivers for their 1st season...
or their final oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mariusz
Do we know how much joint-venture there is between TGR and TMG? Nothing? Don´t think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
Assembling WRC cars in the deep of Finland isn´t a big thing.