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Ok, but cars with upgrades are faster or not?? If yes (it is logical...), than it is good to know who has the latest improvement and who not...at least there, where is an intensive fight for positions between R5 cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
Otherwise-if just one R5 is at the finish line, than it has no sense.....
Some modifications are mandatory some not. It's stated in the homologation regulations for which the new parts replace the old ones (usually after one year I think) and for which both options are allowed in the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
You don't seem to understand so I will repeat what PLuto wrote in other words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
Nobody knows what is installed in which car except the teams themselves. Therefore no result system can ever show accurately the evolution status of said cars. The only proper way is to show only the type of the car and nothing else. In any other case You always show some bullshit in the results.
An example - You have 5 Fiesta R5 on the start line. You know that one team has everything available installed and the other has new engine but not new dampers and new gearbox ratios. The other three teams are foreign and You know nothing about them.
What will You show in results? One Fiesta R5 Evo, One R5 1/2 Evo and three R5? What if all the other three are fully upgraded? Or partially upgraded or each of them in different way? How do You know?
You can never know that and showing the state for just several known cars is simply wrong (Can You be even sure they are really known? have You checked each part Yourself?). That's why the only correct way is not to show such details at all.
Anyway there was decent difference between Fabia S2000 (2009-2010) and Fabia S2000 facelift (2011-) also known as "Evo2" ...It was different from outside and also from inside. BUT it would be arguing about nothing.
But it's still the same case. What made it Evo? larger track and different body parts? But the wide car could have old bodyshell with different placement of some parts (for example I think later cars had battery at the back), it could have old engine, older gearbox etc. More important parts could have been old while those visible could have been new.
Honestly, neither yours nor Pluto’s explanations are totally clear (besides the issue of no one being able to say from outside that the car is a Evo 1, 2 or 3...) and one purpose of the forum is to learn something with the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
So, can you or any other member answer these questions:
With current R5’s (lets put aside S2000’s or any former group or class) the joker parts are single parts or they came in multi parts kits that must be installed altogether? Can you give examples of joker parts that were allowed to be installed separately in R5 cars? Don’t the joker parts (or kits) must be registered on the car tech passport? If yes and if they're acctually kits and not single parts, what’s the problem of making mandatory the use of the designation Evo 1/2/whatever, besides the car model’s name on entry lists? Thxs in advance.
Sorry, I can't tell You any details because I simply don't know them. I can only tell You general principle and that is very similar answer to that one which PLuto told You.
Normally the homologation has several types of extensions. Some of them are mandatory some not. Some of them need jokers some of them not, some may be introduced any time without any limitation.
If I remember right this is what You can find in the homologation form:
VF - means several different suppliers are allowed for the same part
VK - kit, using defined by manufacturer in the homologation list
VO - optional part; normally it's not allowed to combine various VOs for some functional parts, for exmaple You can't combine brake discs from one VO with calipers from another one
ER - this is the mandatory stuff, erratum replaces previously used part; regulations define which parts can be homologated only as ER
IMHO if there is some sort of set of several homologation extensions bound together it's from functional reason not due to regulations saying that some stuff has to be bound to another.
Regarding jokers I would need to have specific homologation regulations for R5 which is not a freely available document therefore I can't say which modifications fall under which category of extensions and what is their application policy. IMO at least all ER shall require jokers but probably many VOs too.
PS I apologize if something what I said is not totally accurate. Someone who works with it daily for sure has better knowledge than me.
I see that the issue of Evos are not as simple as it seems.
But Rally-Power asked a valid question, will different upgrades be registred into the FIA Passport of the individual car?
Jokers need to be registered in gold book. But not all R5 have gold passes. Some other modifications also need to be registered, some not. So it's not that easy and straightforward.
Some Software/firmware updates also need to be mentioned in gold pass.
Some jokers are necessary to be used in groups, some separate. All depends what is written on homologation documents of those.
So there is no easy way to track all the cars like they are without seeing their gold books. And not all cars have gold books and some have not recently updated ones. Most of the time they update the gold passes only on ERC or WRC events. So if car drives only national events you can just guess what's inside.
It's really a mess...and a shame that FIA doesn't care to make regs more clear and easily understood by the fans.