Saddam Hussein Hanged

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10th January 2007, 20:41
Woodeye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I didn't see the Finns volunteering. Iraq had the 4th biggest army in the world in 1991, but Saddam invaded and took Kuwait. I didn't see the Finn's ready to just take him out of there and tell the US to stay home. I have no idea what the Finnish government's take was on it, but I suspect if the Americans didn't volunteer for the job, Kuwait would be a province of Iraq today.

US didn't maybe volunteer, that is true. But this brings us back to the Subject of oil. They needed the oil coming from Kuwait, that is one fact. Ok, I'm not saying it was the only one, but would this been Checnya instead of Kuwait... Ok, but I give credit to US that they kicked Saddam away from there. No need to doubt that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

He is a boor, and a bully who also grilled Charlton Heston and tried to portray him in a ridiculous light in that same movie for no other reason than to bring his view to the screen. The same Heston who invited him into the house for a chat about the subject and the same Heston who was suffering from the first stages of Alzheimers and it didn't stop Moore. .

It's easy to portray someone in rediculous light if he is rediculous. The NRA is a joke, and a really bad one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

You just happen to agree with him, i don't.

I agree. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

You guys with your Anti-American ramblings just have no idea what America is at all.

To be honest maybe I don't have the right idea. But with news coming from US, seeing it's government and president with his regime to act, it's role as a world police, rediculous gun laws, endless armies of lawyers spending their time on the most stupidest things I've ever heard of (spill hot coffee on your pants and get money from it since there was no warning in the cup) and 50 cent. All those things just give an impression that I don't like and I just can't help it.

Just to let you know, when I was 11 or so, my biggest dream was to be a F16 pilot is US air forces. It's funny how opinions tend to change when years pass...
10th January 2007, 21:14
Mark in Oshawa

Woodeye, I take your criticisms in a different light than Eki or Tomi's, for you have some reasoning that makes intellectual sense to me, and while I wont agree with it, I can at least understand your thoughts and why you feel that way.

As for the NRA is being stupid, no, you misunderstand the American democratic system. The right to bear arms is part of their Constitution. It was written in a time where gun ownership was a part of survival in a frontier society. Now the US of course doesn't need those guns to survive in the same way, and the NRA tends to be very fanatical in keeping their right to bear arms, but I suspect that to understand the mentality, you would have to also understand that those who would take the NRA out of American society and those who would outlaw guns would also see nothing wrong if the only people who had guns be the government. That is something that even the most moderate American wouldn't approve of. The American culture of rights and freedoms and how they defend them is unique, and while I don't profess to agree with a lot of what they do, I also understand that they do it in the field of ideas, and debate and use legal means to defend their rights and freedoms. There is no tyrannical overlord in the US running the nation. What is more, people there feel all nations should have the luxury of this system. One where ideas are debated in the court of public opinion.

AS for their role as world police, well they are filling a vacuum really. Other than the UK, no other nation is willing to put significant numbers of troops on the line to enforce the dictates of the UN or any other pro-democratic policies. The Germans and French have been very shy of doing anything, and I wouldn't trust the Russians, Chinese or anyone else who have the manpower in large numbers in the role.

Tomi, I don't understand what you are driving at all for you accusing the US of running the world and imposing laws on other nations. No, the US isn't imposing their laws on anyone save those in Iraq but that is at the behest of the newly formed government. That newly formed government by the way has disagreed with the US a few times already, and yet is allowed that dissent because the Americans know it has to have its own ideas for it to survive. The Americans don't want to be there now, I know you find THAT hard to believe but it is the truth. America also doesn't want to put their laws on foreign soil by force. You don't seem to get that either.

I suspect most Americans, even those who approved of the invasion of Iraq just want it over with, so they could go back to their Ipods, sporting events and pursuit of Happiness. You make Bush out to be trying to take over the world. If I believed that, I would be the first one to object. Living beside the elephant, I know when he rolls over in his sleep. I know that Americans don't always communicate or translate well to you guys, but you have them all wrong. They are not much different than you, other than they are willing to die for principles you wont.

What is more, if the US wasn't the world's policeman, the prevailing train of thought I get from Western Europe that is is better to grab one's ankles and bend over for some of these thugs than confront them. I don't want to live that sort of world. Neville Chamberlain tried to appease a dictator in the 30's and Europe went through a much worse time than if he was confronted in 1936. You cannot solve problems by talking them away and ignoring them.
10th January 2007, 21:15
Mark in Oshawa

Oh yes, Eki, I dispute your numbers of Finn's under arms full time and the number you had in the first Gulf War. IF the Finnish army had half a million armed men in it, It would I suggest be for the defense of the homeland as the Russians invaded. Then I would want to pick up a rifle and help you......
10th January 2007, 21:22
Mark in Oshawa

Oh one more thing. Russia has brutalized Chechnia for years. It has slaughtered people in the name of keeping it in Russia. The terrorists from there are islamic, much like Bin Laden's anti-American thugs. Yet America is blamed for being attacked because of their "actions." It is like blaming a woman for being raped because her top was too low and her skirt was too high. Yet Russia gets a free pass. America is evil, the Russians? Well, we dislike Bush so much that Putin is given a pass. What is more, Putin has done so many things that lead me to believe that he is no different than the old machine that ran the USSR, and I believe a new Cold War is not that far away. I await eagerly your endless posts of condemnation of the Russians and their actions. You guys in Finland in particular should be aware of this, you have them on your doorstep and you were invaded by the Russians once in recent history. I would take you a lot more seriously if you spent as much time ripping Putin apart for what he is about, with accurate and equal venom that you use up on a man who is not much of a president and who will be out of office in 2 years. This same president you heap so much scorn on also has had votes in Congress supporting his efforts, often with bi-partisan support. He wouldn't get that if he was the clown you guys would portray him as, and if anyone in America seriously thought he was a war criminal, they would take care of him in an instant. Trust me......
10th January 2007, 21:34
Tomi

Offcourse yes, i dont agree with Putins doings either, not sure about bush standpoint in this, Tjetjens also has much oil, bad for them.
10th January 2007, 21:41
Tomi

I think the big problem about tjetjenia is that it's very closed country, nothing much reliable comes out from there, news agencies are not interested for some reason.
From Iraq again its easy to find articles and many documents are done too, news agencies like BBC, Al Jazeera + others gives a good view about whats happening there.
10th January 2007, 21:43
Woodeye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

As for the NRA is being stupid, no, you misunderstand the American democratic system. The right to bear arms is part of their Constitution. It was written in a time where gun ownership was a part of survival in a frontier society. Now the US of course doesn't need those guns to survive in the same way, and the NRA tends to be very fanatical in keeping their right to bear arms, but I suspect that to understand the mentality, you would have to also understand that those who would take the NRA out of American society and those who would outlaw guns would also see nothing wrong if the only people who had guns be the government. That is something that even the most moderate American wouldn't approve of. The American culture of rights and freedoms and how they defend them is unique, and while I don't profess to agree with a lot of what they do, I also understand that they do it in the field of ideas, and debate and use legal means to defend their rights and freedoms. There is no tyrannical overlord in the US running the nation. What is more, people there feel all nations should have the luxury of this system. One where ideas are debated in the court of public opinion.

No, I would say that I understand American democratic society wrong. I understand how it works but I don't sometimes understand why it works the way it does. I know that the cornerstone of American democratism is Freedom . It just feels odd that most of the time this freedom is protected by lawyers.

NRA is protected by lawyers as well. And I think it will remain that way. I just can't get it that how is it possible that it is safer if all carry a gun instead that only Police and Army have access to guns? And assault rifles, machine guns, machine pistols and so on, those are not for normal people to use. Every gun is deadly inwrong hands, so why allow it to anyone? NRA is something that I will never understand. Grown up men playing with guns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

What is more, if the US wasn't the world's policeman, the prevailing train of thought I get from Western Europe that is is better to grab one's ankles and bend over for some of these thugs than confront them.

What or who would these thugs be? I don't want to live in a world like that either. That's why I would like to see some diplomacy from US towards islamic countries that they've pissed of. Now be time for it instead of yeat another. (in Iran)
10th January 2007, 21:47
Mark in Oshawa

Tomi, Putin is after the oil if you apply the same standard to him as you do to Bush. Should he be hung? Is HE as big a threat as Saddam was? You see, all I have seen for over 15 pages plus of posts is your hatred for Bush. You don't understand why Bush does what he does, and refuse to look at anyone else as evil.

My point has always been that things are not a simple black and white conflict. America has tradtionally not liked being hated by the world. I don't think they like it now. I don't think Bush likes people not liking him one bit.

That said, he believes in what he does because he HONESTLY thinks he is doing the right thing. He has the backing of a lot of people around the world that are not fools, clowns, misinformed or having some nefarious agenda. When Tony Blair backed Bush, I knew that there was much we didn't know about and still don't know about that brought this about. Listen, being In Canada, I see America in ways you cannot. I know that America is such a large and often contradictory nation that is is impossible to truly understand their national psyche. I do know this much though. They are not the evil for which you prescribe through Bush. Bush is a product of America, and to hate him is to also be accused of hating Americans. When you do that you have to have intellectual arguments for your statements, not just platitudes and half-baked reactions.
10th January 2007, 21:54
Tomi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Tomi, Putin is after the oil if you apply the same standard to him as you do to Bush. Should he be hung? Is HE as big a threat as Saddam was? You see, all I have seen for over 15 pages plus of posts is your hatred for Bush. You don't understand why Bush does what he does, and refuse to look at anyone else as evil.

My point has always been that things are not a simple black and white conflict. America has tradtionally not liked being hated by the world. I don't think they like it now. I don't think Bush likes people not liking him one bit.

That said, he believes in what he does because he HONESTLY thinks he is doing the right thing. He has the backing of a lot of people around the world that are not fools, clowns, misinformed or having some nefarious agenda. When Tony Blair backed Bush, I knew that there was much we didn't know about and still don't know about that brought this about. Listen, being In Canada, I see America in ways you cannot. I know that America is such a large and often contradictory nation that is is impossible to truly understand their national psyche. I do know this much though. They are not the evil for which you prescribe through Bush. Bush is a product of America, and to hate him is to also be accused of hating Americans. When you do that you have to have intellectual arguments for your statements, not just platitudes and half-baked reactions.

i dont think bush should be hung, he should be on trial, same goes for putin too.
i dont understand your talk about product of america, also not every american voted on him either, about the hate thing, if americans dont see the difference with them self and their government, it's their problem not mine.
10th January 2007, 21:59
Eki

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Oh yes, Eki, I dispute your numbers of Finn's under arms full time and the number you had in the first Gulf War. IF the Finnish army had half a million armed men in it, It would I suggest be for the defense of the homeland as the Russians invaded. Then I would want to pick up a rifle and help you......

The total strength of the Finnish military in the continuation war was 530,000. And that was when the total population of Finland was only 3.5 million. Now it's 5.2 million, and still about 90% men (and some voluntary women) do at least 6 to 12 months military service, depending on their rank and special training. I think half a million would be a no-brainer if Finland was seriously threatened (Finland is part of the world, you know, and Kuwait and Saudi royal houses aren't the whole world).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_war

Besides, Saddam tried to take Kuwait once, it didn't work, I don't think he was stupid enough to try it again. He was most likely content being a big fish in a small pond.

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