Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

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Originally Posted by Gannex

That's not what the FIA said, ioan. What they said was that the drawings were such as could be used to design, test, run, etc. a Ferrari. They were just defining the drawings, that's all, explaining that they were technical design drawings, not artist's impressions, or photographs, or anything else. There is no suggestion at all that these drawings were sufficient, on their own, for any purpose at all, never mind building an entire F1 car.

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For aero testing you don't need the entire car.

Certainly with all that info, you can at least figure out your opponents vulnerabilities. So putting in something completely original, but to make the opponents car undrivable when following you.

Or to see the opponents testing strategy. So, in a given test they were .5 secs slower each day, but turns out they ran a bunch of fuel the entire test so as to sandbag. Next time they do that, you might be able to figure it out, based on the info contained in the docs.

Many more such examples could come to mind. The least of which is copying something directly from one car to the other. Thus RD's droning that the Mac contains no Ferrari items... duh... but that's not the most important place they could get an advantage.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.

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Was the software already installed into the blackbox? In that case even if they didn't use it, it was in the car and therefore the case is different. Also, that the FIA turned a blind eye to Benneton in '94 may not mean they will turn a blindeye to this now. The fact is, the software wasn't stolen from another team. This design has been stolen from Ferrari and if it is in Coughlans possession, it may simply mean that Steptoe and son intended to use the plans at another team, hopefully Honda (as we have suspected).

In this manner, the two cases are quite different.

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Originally Posted by ioan

So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

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Well, why did he go with Stepney to meet with Honda's chief? If you can add 2 + 2, it often comes out nearly close enough to 3.98.

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Originally Posted by ioan

What strikes me most is that people here really believe that Coughlan did have access to the whole Ferrari data but he didn't use it for his work on the McLaren!
To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense. I mean for sure that Honda, or any other team, would have valued more the McLaren plans from Coughlan as Stepney had the Ferrari ones at hand already. It simply doesn't make sense!
So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.

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I think my Elvis theory is far more plausible than your, ioan. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jens

I haven't said a word in this thread yet, partly because all the story looks still quite unclear and it's hard to say where exactly the truth is (only the guys involved in this, know exactly that).

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

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While the drivers are no doubt innocent (unless something dramatic turns up) they earned their points driving the car made by the TEAM. Unfortunately, if one team member cheats, the entire team cheats. Ron Dennis may rightly claim that his integrity has not been hurt, but, at the end of the day, he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on within his TEAM. He's the captain of a torpedoed (allegedly) ship and must take the responsibility and go down with the ship along with all the crew aboard.

In team sports, it is difficult to just pick out you and you and you and punish a few members while saying that any benefit from their actions can still go rewarded for other team members. I know the FIA has done this in the past, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do then, either.

I'm also concerned that now Coughlan has admitted to showing the documents to more people within McLaren even if they did "distance themselves" from the documents. How do you "distance yourself" from a key designer within your own team? Perhaps the only way this should have been handled is by McLaren immediately sacking and reporting Coughlan to the authorities and Ferrari when the first McLaren employee knew he had them. That could have saved face at McLaren, but it now appears that these documents were floating around somewhere at McLaren (even if they were in Coughlan's possession) for 2 to 3 months. I find it hard to believe that Coughlan just sat them on his shelf and nobody took any interest in them for 3 months despite knowing he had them.

In any other business, Coughlan would be fired and on trial and the CEO would have resigned. The business would also be facing huge punitive fines and/or lawsuits. Just because F1 is a sport does not mean it is not also big business.

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Originally Posted by GP-M3

Certainly with all that info, you can at least figure out your opponents vulnerabilities. . . Or to see the opponents testing strategy. Many more such examples could come to mind. The least of which is copying something directly from one car to the other.

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I agree with you, GP-M3, that there are any number of ways it could be competitively useful to McLaren to have a fresh copy of Ferrari's 2007 operation or design manuals sitting on their shelves at Woking. The documents would, if studied, surely yield an unfair advantage; that has to be assumed.

So I have to say that wmcot has, to my mind, identified the real issue: it all comes down to the timing. Did McLaren give themselves time to read and inwardly digest the documents before reporting them stolen? Just how long did McLaren top brass dither? If it's a short period, they're ok, and if it's not, they might still be alright, but their explanations for the delays will have to be good. I'm hoping, because this will bring the whole thing to a screeching halt if it's true, that Ron Dennis learned of the theft and reported it forthwith, quickly, without undue delay. From what I've heard about Ron Dennis, he will probably have done just that.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

While the drivers are no doubt innocent (unless something dramatic turns up) they earned their points driving the car made by the TEAM. Unfortunately, if one team member cheats, the entire team cheats. Ron Dennis may rightly claim that his integrity has not been hurt, but, at the end of the day, he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on within his TEAM. He's the captain of a torpedoed (allegedly) ship and must take the responsibility and go down with the ship along with all the crew aboard.

In team sports, it is difficult to just pick out you and you and you and punish a few members while saying that any benefit from their actions can still go rewarded for other team members. I know the FIA has done this in the past, but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do then, either.

I'm also concerned that now Coughlan has admitted to showing the documents to more people within McLaren even if they did "distance themselves" from the documents. How do you "distance yourself" from a key designer within your own team? Perhaps the only way this should have been handled is by McLaren immediately sacking and reporting Coughlan to the authorities and Ferrari when the first McLaren employee knew he had them. That could have saved face at McLaren, but it now appears that these documents were floating around somewhere at McLaren (even if they were in Coughlan's possession) for 2 to 3 months. I find it hard to believe that Coughlan just sat them on his shelf and nobody took any interest in them for 3 months despite knowing he had them.

In any other business, Coughlan would be fired and on trial and the CEO would have resigned. The business would also be facing huge punitive fines and/or lawsuits. Just because F1 is a sport does not mean it is not also big business.

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There is one hole in your plot : if McLaren were to have used the plans, then sure as hell Trudy wouldn't have gone tyo have them copied at the local - they would have copied them at McLaren, wouldn't they?

We can if and surmise all we want, but all the suggestions/hypotheses so far are no more plausible than my Elvis theory.

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Originally Posted by Gannex

I agree with you, GP-M3, that there are any number of ways it could be competitively useful to McLaren to have a fresh copy of Ferrari's 2007 operation or design manuals sitting on their shelves at Woking. The documents would, if studied, surely yield an unfair advantage; that has to be assumed.

So I have to say that wmcot has, to my mind, identified the real issue: it all comes down to the timing. Did McLaren give themselves time to read and inwardly digest the documents before reporting them stolen? Just how long did McLaren top brass dither? If it's a short period, they're ok, and if it's not, they might still be alright, but their explanations for the delays will have to be good. I'm hoping, because this will bring the whole thing to a screeching halt if it's true, that Ron Dennis learned of the theft and reported it forthwith, quickly, without undue delay. From what I've heard about Ron Dennis, he will probably have done just that.

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Well, we know Flav sure as hell wouldn't have. :D

One for Elvis:

Ferrari knows that Brawn, still upset about the way Michael was pushed into retirement, has met with Ferrari and made it clear he ain't coming back.

Ferrari wants/needs a new technical director and would like to have Coughlan.

Coughlan needs to be unemployed with no strings early enough to start working on the 2008 Ferrari.

Coughlan is "set up for a fall" with Ferrari documents.

Coughlan is fired by McLaren and immediately put under contract to Ferrari.

Ferrari withdrawls all legal complaints.

Nigel comes back home to Ferrari, and the job of his choice, secure in the knowledge of where another body is buried and pleased with having played his part to the hilt.