Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

The big problem here is this.....

If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.

Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....

"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"

and

"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"

Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?

At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

The big problem here is this.....

If a team has no responsibility for the actions of it's employees, then the teams can start to cheat in every aspect of design knowing they can just scapegoat some unfortunate mechanic, engineer or programmer and get away with it.

Because if the FIA let this current situation go un-addressed, this is what you'll here next year....

"We didn't know our ECU's had been tampered with to let us rev to 20,000....that must have been John"

and

"We didn't know the car was 50 kilos underweight, Dave's responsible for weighing it"

Unfortunately for Mclaren, they are probably going to be the ones that the FIA use as an example....but what other choice does the FIA have?

At the end of the day, the employer is responsible for the actions of it's employees....and that is a legal argument that even Ron is going to come up against.

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I think the main issue, when talking about the FIA taking action against Mclaren is that there must be evidence that some part of the pinched Ferrari design was used in this year's McLaren. If that is proven, then YES!! you are correct that the FIA must take some action against McLaren. However, I really doubt that any Ferrari design would have been incorporated into this year's McLaren; but then you never know.

We await the chapter of Trudygate with bated breath. :p :

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I think the main issue, when talking about the FIA taking action against Mclaren is that there must be evidence that some part of the pinched Ferrari design was used in this year's McLaren. If that is proven, then YES!! you are correct that the FIA must take some action against McLaren. However, I really doubt that any Ferrari design would have been incorporated into this year's McLaren; but then you never know.

We await the chapter of Trudygate with bated breath. :p :

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That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

That would amount to accept what a majority of people in these forums consider unacceptable: many here claim that Benetton got away of the software affair in 94 by claiming that "the cheating software was there but we didn't use it", and consider that wrong. This would be exactly the same: "we had the stolen blueprints, but we didn't use them". I'm interested to see how many people here think that Benetton was ok in 94; only those should claim that McLaren should not be punished.

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Mind you, it's not exactly the same thing.
If MacLaren had built "Ferrari" parts but didn't use them would be same level of seriousness.
:)

What strikes me most is that people here really believe that Coughlan did have access to the whole Ferrari data but he didn't use it for his work on the McLaren!
To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense. I mean for sure that Honda, or any other team, would have valued more the McLaren plans from Coughlan as Stepney had the Ferrari ones at hand already. It simply doesn't make sense!
So why did Coughlan need the Ferrari plans?!

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.

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Originally Posted by ioan

To put it clear, Stepney trying to use Ferrari plans to try to get a position at Honda it's pretty much logical. But Coughlan using the same Ferrari plans for the same reason doesn't make sense.

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Why? Stepney has already said that "three or four people at Ferrari indicated to me, after reading stories of my approach to Honda, that they would be interested in joining a technical group to go to another team...Mike and I agreed to pool our expertise and talked about what we could bring to a team."

Pooling expertise could include sharing information on how things were done in their respective (current) teams, and then discussing how that could be used to help another team (apparently Honda).

However, this does all assume that Stepney sent Coughlan the infamous document, and it is not yet confirmed that he did.

This is the latest report on the whole thing:

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According to La Repubblica, Coughlan confirms in his affidavit that he had Ferrari's technical drawings and internal documentation in his possession.
Coughlan also allegedly reveals that he showed these documents to several people at McLaren - and not just to managing director Jonathan Neale, as had previously been known.
According to La Repubblica, Coughlan states that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from these documents and advising him to destroy them.
Furthermore, Coughlan has reportedly not confirmed that his source for the documents was indeed ex-Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney, and the newspaper only cites Coughlan as saying he received the documents via an express courier mail service.

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794

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Originally Posted by ioan

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari. Let's suppose that McLaren didn't use those to copy ideas from it but rather to reproduce the Ferrari racer and use it in the wind tunnel together with their car to improve the McLaren's aerodynamics when running behind or in front of the Ferrari! This is a huge advantage gained in an illegal way too, without using Ferrari designs in their own cars.

It seems that there are many ways, other than directly copying the Ferrari designs, to use those stolen documents.

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That's what I was thinking... create one, and see how you can mess up it's aero when it's following you.

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Originally Posted by ioan

The FIA say that the plans that Coughlan had were enough to allow them to recreate the 2007 Ferrari.

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That's not what the FIA said, ioan. What they said was that the drawings were such as could be used to design, test, run, etc. a Ferrari. They were just defining the drawings, that's all, explaining that they were technical design drawings, not artist's impressions, or photographs, or anything else. There is no suggestion at all that these drawings were sufficient, on their own, for any purpose at all, never mind building an entire F1 car.

I haven't said a word in this thread yet, partly because all the story looks still quite unclear and it's hard to say where exactly the truth is (only the guys involved in this, know exactly that).

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

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Originally Posted by jens

But whatever the case is and whatever the penalties will be, I'd say one thing - FIA, please don't touch drivers' points!!! Why should they be punished?!?!

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That would be pretty easy to answer. Just think about it from the other drivers perspective.