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Depends, all the facts in the particular case of McLaren at Turkey are out, and the situation is very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo
Sorry there is no meat left on the bones for you to pick, but that's just the way it is, as Bruce H would sing.
No lashing I'm afraid but would like to offer my opinion on all the "Fuss".Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
For me there is 3 sections to the answer.
1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?
1. Team orders are banned and hopefully nobody here is stupid enough to believe Ferrari didn't employ them.
We can discuss until the cows come home if Team orders should be banned or not but at the moment they are a fundamental part of the sporting regulations and were proactively and wilfully broken in a premeditated manner.
2. I think this has had a terrible effect on the sport. This year has been a great one with what seems to be fans returning to watch the sport. However, these new fans along with us old established supporters believe we have been hoodwinked and cheated.
The man that should have won had to give his victory to someone that didn't earn it. People think that the sport is a farce and a major sporting event has been corrupted by blatant cheating.
F1 has obviously been brought into disrepute.
3. So, what should happen now?
This is such a difficult thing to answer as the rule is such a stupid one. It would seem logical that sometimes it's necessary to employ preferential treatment but should only be when a driver has no chance of winning the championship. If these positions were reversed, then Massa would be 10 points closer.
So far, the FIA have given a fine which is meaningless but what else can the FIA do? You cannot reverse positions and disqualifying the two Ferrari's would seem so unfair but the fact remains that serious harm has been done to the sport. Not only that, there is also questions being raised about legality and international Law. You cannot fix an international sporting event and run the risk of being arrested and tried. If I had money on Massa, I would like some answers.
Why, oh why, did they do it so obviously??? I know other teams do it but this was like sticking 2 fingers up?
At the moment, the credibility of the sport is in the dirt and this is not finished with yet.
They robbed the team .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
They should give it back .
Lousy excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
The real difference beeing that it was the last race of the year and Massa knew he had ZERO chances to win the title, so it was easy to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Yesterday both drivers were in the running for the WDC, Ferrari didn't get any advantage from this move, however they blew Massa away exactly one year after he was 1 inch from death in one of these scarlet cars.
How do you think that he feels about yesterday after being so loyal to these scums for such a long time?
You're right he's much classier then Luca and Stefano will ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Quote from skc:
1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?
1. used every race
2. none , used every race .
3. legalise team orders
Every order , by it's very nature , from a team , is a team order , and will affect the result of the race .
Therefore , it is completely illogical to attempt to employ such a rule .
It's pretty simple .
The way in which the rule is actually used is , however , another thing .
It seems only a matter of how popular the driver involved is , or how un-popular a team is , that gets the press going , that gets the fans stirred , that prompts the FIA to fine a tactic all the teams employ .
It's simply stupid that it is a matter of the degree of public dissatisfaction that gets one fined and investigated .
Ferrari had to know they would take some stick for letting Alonso pass .
The had just seen the same dour face on a winner for the Bulls , made dour because only a few points had cost him a wing .
30 points , when a victory is tough , and worth only 25 , is simply not enough to have you take the number one status .
The dour face cost them $100,000 .
The million back in 2002 wasn't for the team orders as those were legal back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Let's face it, all the above discussion just goes to prove that there is no effective way to control team orders.
I would think that if the situation were to come up again at Ferrari you would see a different scenario. This time instead of ordering Massa to let Alonso by they would simply have a problem with an errant wheel during his pit stop. Not much, just a few seconds would be enough.
So where does that leave us?
If I were a driver facing such a decision, I would have to decide if I wanted to be the number 2 on a top team or whether I wanted to actually race as hard as I could for a lesser team. You won't win a championship either way but you might have a better feeling about yourself and your career.
The only way I can see it ending is if every driver agrees to the same contract stipulations outlining that there is no number 1 or 2 and that they can race each other. Don't worry about teammates taking each other out-do away with the constructors title and it won't matter. Remember that the constructors title didn't enter the picture until 1958. Prior to that there were some hair raising battles within teams. If the drivers are deciding their own chances for a title you just may see some interesting racing.
I know that this will never happen, since it is no longer a sport but a business and the "win at all cost" attitude extends to the contracts that the lawyers dream up. All I know is that I would not feel good about winning a championship knowing another driver was told to move over. If you are a champion you need to find a way to win and prove it on the track, not in the boardroom.
I think you're missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
1. They are illegal. Whether they should be or not is immaterial. All that matters is you cannot do it.
2. If you cannot see the considerable impact this has had on the sport, then I am honestly not going to try and convince you otherwise.
3. I don't see how they can effectively can police the ban on team orders. As you say, it is widespread. The only difference,and why there is uproar, is that Ferrari were so utterly stupid in how they implemented their race fixing.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your victimisation whine though. It wasn't because it was Ferrari. It was because it was blatant cheating in front of Millions of people; many who have been left disillusioned.