Is any artificial watering used to grow them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
I didn't say all the Middle East is infertile desert. There are oasis even in Saudi Arabia, aren't there?
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Is any artificial watering used to grow them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
I didn't say all the Middle East is infertile desert. There are oasis even in Saudi Arabia, aren't there?
So Rani, since you won't answer my question about Begin, do you think that Irgun and the Stern Gang were terrorists?
They seem to fit the classic profile of a terrorist group to me.
When we blame ourselves, we feel no one else has a right to blame us
I think the bombing of the hotel was a terrorist act, but I also think that giving warning to all in the hotel and giving them a chance to flea means that these people wanted to make a political statement more than they wanted to take lives. Other than that you could find that Begin targeted British installations and posts, which I think is legitimate resistance (that's also why I don't call it terrorism if a Kassam rocket hits Nitzanim army base).Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
I don't think you can call Begin a terrorist on these grounds, and you can't forget that as PM he orchestrated the peace with Egypt.
Did you know that in Deir Yassin The Irgun and Lehi (you call this the Stern gang) gave up the element of surprise by warning all woman and children to flea before the fighting insued? They were actually warned by loud speaker. Instead of running, they stayed, and a lot of the men dressed up as women in order to kill non suspecting Israelis by confusing them and concealing weapons.
There is that difference of fighting like men and hiding behind local population I keep mentioning again.
What would you say about this incident where undercover Israeli agents went to Argentina and kidnapped Eichmann:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/03/ob...20and%20Belief
It's not about the moral of it, since Eichmann certainly got what he deserved, but the principal: You just don't sneak into another sovereign country and kidnap civilians there.
Some may say that the end justifies the means. Maybe, but then they should excuse the Palestinians for using the means they have. They don't have a large organized military with sophisticated weapons like Israel, so they must use what they have: rocks, suicide bombs, molotov cocktails and homemade rockets.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Kidnapping a key element in the most ruthless killing machine "man" ever made = throwing rocks at civilians who foray into Ramallah by mistake http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=211229 = suicide bombings in Park Hotel, Netanya in a mass Passover eve; "The Passover Massacre" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre= molotov cocktalis thrown on civilian cars near Al Khadr; I can't link this but Iwas near myself = shooting home made rockets at babies http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1196847352499
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Out of pure curiousity, tell me what would you do if you had a chance to bring the murderer of your (and millions other) grandparents to justice in court but bureaucracy was in the way and he was livin' it large somewhere?
What would you do if millions of foreigners moved in your neighborhood and squeezed you out to some miserable refugee camp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY
favorite quote: "For me life has little value because I'm returning to my lord" - My guess is the girl who says it is about twelve years old. My brother is almost twelve. Most of the time he just plays Maple Story.
Btw what kind of response do you expect from posting that link? It resembles a hopeless life that they don't have anything they can expect from this transitory life because of justice they can't obtain in this life. Has this ever been crossed in your mind?
I think would be much worthwhile to contribute a piece of effort to achieve the real definition of peace in that region, rather than defending who is the rightest? I think this is as simple those refuse the talk of peace deserves to blame.
I keep mentioning this again, if Timothy McVie had broadcasted his group's intentions of bombing the building in Oklahoma City and warning people to leave, this would not have made it a terrorist act?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
It seems very much to me that there is one law for the zionists and another law for the Palestinians.
Had you seen or read Jimmy Carter's book, "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid"?
But this is exactly what Israel is doing against the Palestinian people by their illegial use of "Collective Punishment".Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
I'm just trying to show the complete absurdity of comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and portraying Palestinians as harmless and innocent. How could someone brought up watching "Children's Club" and brainwashed through all branches of media ever want peace?Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardsleeping
Also, what would you do if you were faced with someone who will stop at nothing to see you dead? I guess when there isn't a will to stop the violence (by Hamas and the other groups) there isn't a chance for peace.
Would you negotiate with someone who says "I want peace" but also claims "you don't have a right to exist"?
The sentence may not yet end, you don't have a right to exist here, or you have right to exist but not here, how it sounds? ;)
Yes, I would try to talk him to change his mind. Talking does no harm, even when it's not working. Violence does do harm, and it isn't working either. 60 years of violence should be enough to prove it doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
I think it goes back to what I said before about people not being bothered with killing each other when they have jobs, electricity and non-bulldozed houses.
True, talking does no harm, the will on talking would reflect seriousness to terminate the violence.
If anyone has been 'brainwashed' it is the rest of the world into believing that what ever Israel does is right, because of the terrible horrors that have been perpetrated upon them in the past.
They can treat Palestinains as second class citizens and practise "Collective Punishment" against them.
One big myth that is constantly played out is that Jews were the only ones persecuted by the nazis and kept in concentration camps, when this is plainly not true and I find quite offensive.
I thought the bit about Israel not having the right to exist had been refuted quite a few post ago in this thread.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
That's was the bone of contention, if you don't have any problem translating my old posts they said basically the same. :sQuote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
That's pretty much it. Israel has backing from the US because of the money but also gets the sympathy vote from the rest because of the Holocaust. In my mind it's 60 years ago. Get over it and move on with life now. Not nice to say but the Russians lost a lot more people in WW2 but don't go on about it all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Your statement sums up exactly what I have been trying to say, which is: "anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any shape or form is for all intents and purposes denying Israel's right to exist and therfore by association anti-semetic!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
I'm not denying the right of Israel to exist, it does and it will, however I would like to see some justice for the Palestinians as well.
[quote="Eki"] You just don't sneak into another sovereign country and kidnap civilians there.quote]
A better example of this is the kidnapping from Rome of Mordechai Vanunu in the 1980's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu
True. That was not even morally right or justified like the kidnapping of Eichmann.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
It's not me you have to convince. For me it's all the same, I just try to look at it from the Palestinian point of view while you and Rani are looking at it from the Israeli view point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Camelopard, you cannot understand the full meaning of my post if you are not aware of the context, which is our verbal fencing that has been going on for years. Right, Eki? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
Eki repeatedly said that in his view Israel needs to just disappear from the political map the way East Germany once did. Eki, correct me if I am wrong.
I have no stakes in the Mid-Eastern conflicts. I have not a drop of Jewish blood in my vanes and have always perfectly got along with all Muslims I knew. I am much more pro-peace than I am pro-Israeli. The real difference between me and Eki boils down to the fact that I recognise the ligitimate right of Palestinians to have their state. Eki, on the opposite, thinks that Israel may as well cease existing. He also often sides with Ahmadinejad, who insists that Israel has no place on the map.
Again, the question is, if I wasted a couple years (including my office time ;) ) try to convince a liberal European, do I stand any chance to convince an Islamic fanatic, who has already started fancying nice chicks in paradise where he expects to get upon exploding himself together with a coupe dozens infidels?
OK, I did not realise this and that makes me understand some of your postings in the Iran thread, although you must agree that it makes it very difficult for a casual observer to see this if they haven't been around along time. My apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
I spend a lot of time reading travelogues and came across this one when I did a search on Tajikistan.
http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/Carrinos/
I've been readfing about their travels from Chicago through the South Pacific, South East Asia, China and so on.
To say I was suprised when I got to this page is an understatement.
http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-Eas...log-58106.html
I hadn't read the title as I had just pressed next from their previous journal. I fully expected the usual stuff about Israel and how hard done by they had been and was totally amazed to see at the bottom of the journal comments like this:
"We saw the mosque where in 1994 Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims prayer, killing 30 and wounding hundreds. In the demonstrations that followed, the Israeli army killed 12 more, then shut down the mosque for nine months, and gave part of it over for a synagogue."
So I did a google on him and came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
A small quote from this site:
"The gravesite has become a pilgrimage site for those with extreme right-wing political views; a plaque near the grave reads 'To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel.' "
"Between the killings and 2000, an estimated 10,000 people have visited the grave"
Back to the original travelogue and another interesting comment:
"After checking out of our hostel, we headed to Hebron in the Palestinian Authority with Abu Hassan , a tour guide who has spent his life under Israeli occupation. It remains amazing to us that a people who've seen the effects of oppression don't see the parallels with their treatment of the Palestinians. Simply driving to Hebron was an eye-opening experience. Don't let the media tell you that Ohlmut is getting rid of the settlements - all along the way, we saw new buildings going up, along with the seperation wall that makes it impossible for a Palestinian state to truly exist. Of course, when it's done, the Israelis will offer the Palestinians statehood, and when they refuse, they'll be blamed for being unreasonable." (my underlining).
Also note the photo with the caption: "Your Tax Dollars at Work".
Nevermind. Sometimes these forums are a real jungle. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
True. I'm positive that if all Jews of foreign heritage left Israel, gave back the occupied territories to the neighboring countries and renamed the whole place Palestine, even Ahmadinejad would be happy without any bloodshed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
A difference between the cultures is that while suicide bombers are revered as heroes and chil role models by Palestinians, Goldstein is seen in mainstream Israel as a filthy murderer/terrorist/general piece of scum (a lot of people who visit the graveside are from overseas and the group he blonged to, Kah is considered a terrorist group outlawed by Israeli government).Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
This whole post you quoted is very one sided. I think that if you were a soldier and faced with a life threatening situation, you'd rather take a life than have yours taken. These demonstrations were not peaceful (I don't blame them), in fact they were flat-out riots. These soldiers are not "killers". BTW the place where all this insued is called The Patriarchs Cave and his holy to jews as well as muslims (and christians as well). Jews are not allowed inside but for 10 holy days every year. This is only to prevent clashes and to leave the muslims to their prayers.
Concerning this story, I could counter it with a thousand other stories of palestinian terrorism, but I guess the point of Camelopard's posts are to one sidedly show Israel as the bad guy so who am I to interfere...
No it isn't, I'm showing that there are 2 sides to every story, one side of which never gets the chance to be told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
Have you read Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid"? I suppose you are going to tell me that the former President of the USA is an anti-semite?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012301668.html
' "This is the first time that I've ever been called a liar and a bigot and an anti-Semite and a coward and a plagiarist." Carter paused and squinted at the audience. " '
Thats a bit of a one sided portrayal too. Sure there's a significant part of the Palestinian population that congratulates each suicide bomber as a hero but there are significant sections that hate the way the bombers hijack any peace effort and how much they are costing Palestinian society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
I remember a Sunday Times article focusing on a senior Hamas official a couple of years ago. The article was actually more interested in the personal interrelationship between him and his two wives but the journalist asked the official to defend suicide bombing. To his surprise the official said that he couldn't, it was against Islamic religious teaching and was utterly counterproductive for the Palestinian cause. He then went on to explain how many Palestinians had invested their entire life savings after the Oslo peace accords to start up business ventures and had lost everything once the suicide bombings restarted and the cycle of violence kicked off again. They were the biggest casualties on the Palestinian side and few of them were fans of the suicide bombers. He did of course acknowledge that his views weren't in line with Hamas' official policy. I have spoken to quite a few Palestinians who hold a similar line and recognise how 'suicidal' the suicide bombings really are for the Palestinians.
If those guys were to obtain power, I don't think Israel would be halting the peace process, on the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
I don't think that trying to look at it from either point of view is especially helpful, given that these are so entrenched as to have made progress extremely difficult at best. The senior representatives of both sides, and their most vocal (and violent) elements, have often proved unable to take a broader view and thus aim for what is important here: peace. Looking at it from the Palestinian point of view doesn't help, because the Palestinian point of view as you see it (in reality, I suspect most Palestinians don't care so long as the bloodshed stops) is not constructive. Refusing to recognise the right of Israel to exist as a state is not a good way to move forward. Likewise, moves towards peace will continue to fail as long as Israel uses force disproportionately and refuses to recognise the fact that the Palestinians have their rights too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism.
The problem with most liberals is that they are the biggest idiots out there. Reasoning with them is like getting investment advice from a drunken homeless man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
I agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Well perhaps you could give us a ratio of suicide bombers to population your country vs Israel and then you just may get a idea of why they could get provoked at Tope's statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Came across another interesting post in my favourite Travelblog site, I started reading this guys blog when he was in China, anyway read the blog and the comments at the bottom and take a good look at the photos.
http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-Eas...og-104659.html
As usual a small quote:
The first stone had been cast: saliva rains down on us and people jump above one another to be able to deliver their contempt. We are shoved and kicked repeatedly, and even though it is apparent that events are spiraling dangerously out of control, the soldiers who are standing just a few feet behind us at the checkpoint choose to look on impotently as the attacks intensify.
A man lunges from the crowd, smashing Tove, a 19 year old Swedish girl across the face with a bottle. She immediately collapses to the ground clutching her bloodied face in horrified terror. At this point the soldiers come forward and motion at the settlers, in a “ok… that’s enough guys…” motion, amid clapping, cheering and chanting from the crowd.
As Tove lay on the hard concrete floor, blood oozing from her wounds the crowd re-groups, fed by curiosity and growing in energy“We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!” I now felt a growing sense of apprehension as awareness dawned of the mob’s evil intent and the soldiers’ unwillingness to intervene in any meaningful way. (my underlining)
As a followup to Tove's injuries see this link:
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/20...hebron-day-06/
" “The Swedish government is dissatisfied with Israel’s investigation of an attack in the contentious West Bank city of Hebron that left a Swedish activist with a broken cheekbone, the Swedish Foreign Ministry said Tuesday.
“We’re concerned that this hasn’t been followed up, and we intend to speak to the relevant authorities and ask for more information about the incident,” said Petra Hansson, a spokeswoman for the Swedish Foreign Ministry. ” "
Yep, things haven't changed much since Jesus's days. They had the then superpower Rome on their side, now they have the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
Apparently your Goverment thinks otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Gov.../1076153918137
BTW Aren't Finnish Troops part of the UN "Peacekeeping Force" in Israel? Actually one of the casualties of the accidental Israeli shelling of the UN Bunker was a Finnish Soldier.