Fuel issue- No penalty for BMW/Williams- McLaren to appeal

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Originally Posted by markabilly

So you and benie acTually agree with what BE said today:

"I was campaigning for them not to take points from drivers,"

"Max was probably right, actually. If the team had an advantage, therefore the drivers had an advantage. And should they have an advantage? The answer is no.

"He is right on the regulations. The regulations say if the car loses points, the driver loses points as well."

:D :s mokin:

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That decision really pushed this season into the sinkhole. In 2005, when BAR got DQed for running underweight, there was no indication that Button and Sato knew anything about it, but they lost their points from Imola as well. Bernie was pooping his panties with the knowledge that losing all the points from the Stepney races would kill the McLaren drivers' chances at the WDC then and there, leaving an estimated 12 viewers worldwide for the remaining races of the season.

So expediency replaced doing the correct thing, leaving us with a further mess today and the whole reputation of F1 in jeopardy. Nice job, guys..... :\

ClarkFan

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Well they got what they started---a big mess all as a result of RD and his "equality" policy cost them....say what you will, if they had gone with experience instead of potential and "equality", then they would have a wdc right now...probably two races ago

Instead Freddie found himself semi-number two/one---and LH made a big stink at the Monaco and got his way...then we had the pit stop in Qualifying, with another big stink by LH which began when he disobeyed his orders like a spoiled brat, and poppa mouthed off.....Put the pole back to FA and he wins or finishes second....weeelll now...

Then today, the story is Mac has already has a WDC....instead, Freddie gets mad and does his blackmail number...maxie gets the call, and 100 million dollars later.....

Blame Freddie all you want, but it was the actions of LH that started the brouhahaha, first at Monaco and then later about the paddle/pit...leave that out of the picture and Mac has a wdc AND MAYBE the WCC, plus maybe an extra 100 million in its pockets

Freeddie may be a psycho, but MAc hired him, and then let LH throw the lit match on the gasoline...the rest is history..... :s mokin:

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You talk much pish.. What u smokin?

I found fuel warmer easy installed to the customer car or bike and I don't think such additional instrument would be a problem to be implemented in F1 car, needn't have performed infraction on the rules. They may get the fuel at higher temperature not by intention but for the hotter temperature of environment of the track in Brazil.

So no fine would be borne by the BMW ;)

The ironic thing is that McLaren are now relying on the opposite of the decisions against them happening to BMW and Williams.

The team were disqualified from the WCC yet the drivers escaped punishment. Hamilton used too many tyres yet the team were punished and the driver let off because it was an "honest mistake".

Now McLaren want the the BMW and Williams drivers disqualified for an infraction on the team's part. Why should the BMW and Williams drivers be treated any differently from your own Mr Dennis?

they are just using the last escape route to give Hamilton the Title. if Hamilton didn't choke in the past couple races, he'dve won, but Kimi was cool and took it to the Macs and he earned the title, no way should the courts take it away from him

I'm not sure how Ron Dennis could have gotten Hamilton to be a #2 to Alonso, to the point that he could have helped Alonso be WDC. Especially when Hamilton proved to be quicker and racier than Alonso on more than a few occasions. Unlike Kimi or Felipe, certain people are making me think that Alonso needed to be carried in order to accomplish the mission. Interesting...

The winningest driver won the WDC, and that seems fine and right. The most promising driver (IMO) came in 2nd. And the more emotionally fragile driver is likely on his way back to his old team... and my company will have to pony up a greater amount of sponsor cash to support his Kleenex habit.

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Originally Posted by harvick#1

they are just using the last escape route to give Hamilton the Title. if Hamilton didn't choke in the past couple races, he'dve won, but Kimi was cool and took it to the Macs and he earned the title, no way should the courts take it away from him

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Thats exactly why the courts would take it away from him. Courts don't like people that get things done on their own. Courts like people that need courts to get things done for them. If everybody took care of themselves properly, then someone might figure out we don't need all these courts.

Can't have that, can we?

The problem with cool fuel has to do with a principle of thermodynamics. If the temperature of the intake mixture is lowered and the exhaust temperature remains the same, then the horsepower goes up. So the teams running with cold gas had a technical advantage over those that did not.

The stewards decision not to penalize BMW and Williams was simply to avoid more @%$# because the pile has gotten too deep this year and the septic tank is full. Looks like breaking the rules is OK, for some anyway.

F1 Ass Co.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

When you look through all that has happened this season, and even what happened in this last race, one has to suspect that McLaren means dysfunctional.

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I thought KR's slap at Maclaren during his post race interview was quite telling. Must be a horrible place to work.

DISQUALIFY THEM! They're outside the regulations so it's not the McLaren's who are the cheats. The decision not to penalise them is the injustice. Then again maybe I'm just one sided and angry :(

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Originally Posted by Cozzie

DISQUALIFY THEM! They're outside the regulations so it's not the McLaren's who are the cheats. The decision not to penalise them is the injustice. Then again maybe I'm just one sided and angry :(

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Yeah, disqualify the Williams and BMWs, and then give LH the 1 minute penalty that he deserves for Friday's "honest mistake" :rolleyes:

It would be amusing, from an ironic standpoint, if Hamilton was awarded the WDC after McLaren's appeal. After all, I believe it was Ferrari that raised so much hell about how a team could be found in violation of regulations and not be penalized earlier in the season. Wonder if they will raise hell about it now?

Might be some chickens heading home to roost.

If FIA has a sense of humour, it will take the constructors points from BMW and Williams, leaving th standgings unaffected. This appeal shows how desperate are the Mclarens. The know that this title will be awful PR and will make Lewis villain. Could mean that they are behind shedule with 2008 car.
But it will be injustice to Kimi. It won't be fair.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Well they got what they started---a big mess all as a result of RD and his "equality" policy cost them....say what you will, if they had gone with experience instead of potential and "equality", then they would have a wdc right now...probably two races ago

Instead Freddie found himself semi-number two/one---and LH made a big stink at the Monaco and got his way...then we had the pit stop in Qualifying, with another big stink by LH which began when he disobeyed his orders like a spoiled brat, and poppa mouthed off.....Put the pole back to FA and he wins or finishes second....weeelll now...

Then today, the story is Mac has already has a WDC....instead, Freddie gets mad and does his blackmail number...maxie gets the call, and 100 million dollars later.....

Blame Freddie all you want, but it was the actions of LH that started the brouhahaha, first at Monaco and then later about the paddle/pit...leave that out of the picture and Mac has a wdc AND MAYBE the WCC, plus maybe an extra 100 million in its pockets

Freeddie may be a psycho, but MAc hired him, and then let LH throw the lit match on the gasoline...the rest is history..... :s mokin:

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spot on markabilly.... you sir are a god amongst men here. words of a genius.

Ron I hope will rethink this insane decision to appeal, given that his drivers got off scot free when at least one of them was knowingly cheating.

After a good night's sleep he will hopefully realise its suicide to try this now.

And I would expect Lewis to come out and say he would refuse the title if they took it away from Kimi.

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Originally Posted by Cozzie

DISQUALIFY THEM! They're outside the regulations so it's not the McLaren's who are the cheats. The decision not to penalise them is the injustice. Then again maybe I'm just one sided and angry :(

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OK, let's make it fair for all - DQ Heidfeld, Kubica, and Rosberg for low fuel temps and then DQ Alonso and Hamilton for the use of Ferrari data. Finally DQ Ron Dennis as being a human and then DQ Bernie and Max as being insane. That should take care of this season!

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Originally Posted by F1boat

If FIA has a sense of humour, it will take the constructors points from BMW and Williams, leaving th standgings unaffected. This appeal shows how desperate are the Mclarens. The know that this title will be awful PR and will make Lewis villain. Could mean that they are behind shedule with 2008 car.
But it will be injustice to Kimi. It won't be fair.

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Apparently there is a precedent, 12 years ago M Schumacher and Coulthard were driving with "illegal" fuel, Williams and Ferrari lost manufacturers points but drivers points remained.

This explains why I didn' get sleep until three am, I went to bed half past 11 but couldn't get any sleep. Somehow I knew something was wrong. :D

Wow, what a concept! On a day where temps are 35C (97F) fuel is at a lower temp than the air temp. When I fill my tank on a 97F summer day, I hope the fuel coming out of the pump is more than 10 degrees lower than ambient. Similarly, in the winter when the temp is 0F, I hope the fuel is higher than ambient.

But that's common sense and that is one concept that never applies to F1!

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

It would be amusing, from an ironic standpoint, if Hamilton was awarded the WDC after McLaren's appeal. After all, I believe it was Ferrari that raised so much hell about how a team could be found in violation of regulations and not be penalized earlier in the season. Wonder if they will raise hell about it now?

Might be some chickens heading home to roost.

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Yes, and those chickens will be roosting down Woking way. McLaren have benefitted from their drivers escaping the teams punishment. Why should BMW and Williams expect any less for their drivers.

We have decisions that go both ways. In '95 Schumacher and Coulthard were left with their points from that years Brazilian GP after their teams were disqualified for fuel irregularities. In the opposite corner, we have both Honda drivers being excluded, along with the team, over the fuel tank issue at Imola '05. So which, if any, sets a precedent?

The most recent, and biggest case, is the Stepney-gate ruling. McLaren's drivers were set appart from the team. It would be somewhat hypocritical of Ron to expect that BMW and William's drivers share the fate of their teams, would it not?

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Originally Posted by Zico

You talk much pish.. What u smokin?

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Nothing.

I just have not been drinkin the kool aid as I said before hamilton did it all to bring it down on his team...pure and simple, add the last two races together....

To say nothing of the big nonsense, when he decided to disobey the arrangment as to who would pit and so forth at Qualifying with Mac, after having received the very same benefits before, the resultant paddle incident, the fussing at RD, setting off FA who then blows up at Hamilton but the whole thing costing FA five grid places, but as a result of this loss, FA threatens RD with disclosure of the cheating if Mac lets this go on....so RD decides to call MAx and then everything goes downhill, No WCC and no WCC points.....and now no WDC...

Thanks
Louie, you managed to screw your own team, and they have not figured it out yet, but there you are, mouthing off in Brazil as though you had already won.....

The rest of you Hamilton fans, drink your kool aid and blame the Spanard for Hamster's own failures, just like you been doing... :rolleyes:

Perhaps the stewards should check Ron's temperature! He seems a bit cold-blooded. Anybody got a thermometer? Rectal, preferably! ;)

Oh yes, McLaren are appealing the stewards decision not to impose penalties on BMW and Williams!!

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41157

After all the breaks they've had this year and every last chance given to Hamilton to clinch it, i am nothing short of disgusted.

Till this year i was a life long McLaren fan, that has now officially ended.

Grow up, you lost, the better man won and quite frankly the FIA has already given you every possible chance to secure the championships for the 'little miracle' (dont think much of him, can u tell?!) In the end, it was Hamltons inexperience that let him down and to try and take the championship away from the deserving winner over a 4degree possible, not even certain, irregularity is utter madness.

Ron, i have no idea what your playing at, but u just lost a hell of alot of loyal fans.

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Originally Posted by winer

I thought KR's slap at Maclaren during his post race interview was quite telling. Must be a horrible place to work.

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Yes he did say something to that effect, as though he was hinting that JPM may have something to what he says...and most interesting about how Kimi seldom says much, but that did sort of stand out to me...

I still wonder if Max shouldn't throw Bernie to the dogs for going against the complete 2 season ban on McLaren!

The dwarf made a mockery of F1 this season.

As for RD and his band of cheats... better not express my feelings in a public forum! :mad:

After all, Ron wants the trophy! He keeps all the drivers' trophies as well as the constructors' trophies. I can just see him in the trophy room of the Paragon walking around and muttering, "Ooh, shiny! Ooh, pretty!"

There was a time when I had respect for Ron, but this season has seen an end to that. I now only pity him as the obsessive-compulsive, narcissistic human being he has finally become. :(

what logic is that?
the measure is over the limits but well.. okay, we will not do anything.
Oh, your wing is slightly too wide, your underbody slightly too low, your car a little too light... we will do nothing.

but it may be that at some point someone of the team might have known some maybe confidential info of another team (but we admit we will never know for sure!) we will ban the team, dock the points, fine your a** to moon and back!!!

This is FIA logic.

if the car is off limits, ban it. You can measure it, you can proof the infriction. unlike in a specific other case.

this would put an end on a fine season. it definitely would fit either way. FIA go home.

I prefer FIA take the points off bmw & williams..
Yes it is unfair on the drivers or Kimi to lose for sure but there cars arguably where going quicker than they should have and therefore could have being passable by hamilton... or am I day dreaming? i am not.


now I wonder why Kubica's bmw was so fast overtook Alonso also..
there must be some blame and lets see what the fia going to say about it, there some degree of cheating involved!

It's a great shame to end the season like that, I would have thought McLaren would have known better after the year they've had.

I wouldn't have thought they have a hope in hell of winning that appeal.

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Originally Posted by rohanweb

I prefer FIA take the points off bmw & williams..
Yes it is unfair on the drivers or Kimi to lose for sure but there cars arguably where going quicker than they should have and therefore could have being passable by hamilton... or am I day dreaming? i am not.

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You mean they could have been passed by Hamilton in his McLaren-Ferrari????

Alonso made the BMW and Williams look faster than it should, not for allegation of warmer fuel :)

I know where I have seen Ron Dennis before! Anyone familiar with the Christmas classic "It's a Wonderful Life" will surely see the similarity between RD and Mr. Potter!!!! ;)

McLaren should let it lie. Even if those drivers did get DQ'd. What way is that to win the championship?!

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Perhaps the stewards should check Ron's temperature! He seems a bit cold-blooded. Anybody got a thermometer? Rectal, preferably! ;)

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lol .. RD isnt a cold blooded man, he is an emotional charector, but why the hell everyones quiet when todt,briotore or tororosso boss take a complian to the fia over each and everything, Ron has the same right to go to court to settle the problems obviously he feels its the right thing to do.!

regards to the outcome there is nothing wrong taking the issue to court for a satisfaction that court has given the order of it isnt a fault of bmw&williams or else.

its something i see that ferrari team and fans fear that they might lose the title ( now joined with loser alonso's fans) just incase Lewis win the title
lol./

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Originally Posted by wmcot

You mean they could have been passed by Hamilton in his McLaren-Ferrari????

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wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..

comon.. how come williams and bmw were matching for speed each lap of mclaren 'just in this race' ..??? you tell me they have done 'lots' of work to beat mclaren..i dont believe so.

the way Kubica drove behind Alonso & overtaken him suggested that its not his lighter fuel load happened to be too faster than the mclaren.

I say the cold fuel conspiracy indeed made a difference, while max,fia,benie & the rest's were too worried and looked on at mclaren of favorism the bmw & williams boys got an advantage, knowingly that max,benie,fia wont really see what they do

Spot on rohanweb, Ferrari has often made threats to complain about issues it doesn't agree with, the only difference is the people who moan about the matter. ;)
that said, I think looking back at the season, it does no one any good to drag it any further.
I'd rather wrap this season up and move on to more exiting stuff, like waiting for the first tests before next season. :p :

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Originally Posted by rohanweb

lol .. RD isnt a cold blooded man, he is an emotional charector, but why the hell everyones quiet when todt,briotore or tororosso boss take a complian to the fia over each and everything, Ron has the same right to go to court to settle the problems obviously he feels its the right thing to do.!

regards to the outcome there is nothing wrong taking the issue to court for a satisfaction that court has given the order of it isnt a fault of bmw&williams or else.

its something i see that ferrari team and fans fear that they might lose the title ( now joined with loser alonso's fans) just incase Lewis win the title
lol./

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These would be the same courts who decided to let Ron continue to run in 2007 and 2008! The F1 fans of the world are sick of having every race (potentially) decided in court! I would doubt that there is one single race during a season that one team or another could not find some small reason to appeal some part of the race. REAL racing fans want to see the results on track, not watch an endless stream of court cases...we already have that, it's call "Court TV."

In addition to my previous post, Hamilton did overtake Heidfeld at turn one of lap four if not mistaken :)

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Originally Posted by rohanweb

wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..

comon.. how come williams and bmw were matching for speed each lap of mclaren 'just in this race' ..??? you tell me they have done 'lots' of work to beat mclaren..i dont believe so.

the way Kubica drove behind Alonso & overtaken him suggested that its not his lighter fuel load happened to be too faster than the mclaren.

I say the cold fuel conspiracy indeed made a difference, while max,fia,benie & the rest's were too worried and looked on at mclaren of favorism the bmw & williams boys got an advantage, knowingly that max,benie,fia wont really see what they do

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Do you really think that 3° C of fuel temperature made a difference of 11 seconds?

And as to Kubica passing Alonso - well, could it have been Kubica's three stop strategy that made him way lighter at that point than two-stopping Alonso?

McLaren should not try to win in the courtroom a championship that they lost on track.

I wonder what Mercedes have to say about all of this as I very much doubt they would be happy to win a championship this way.

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Originally Posted by rohanweb

wmcot.. yes the time difference was just over 11 seconds at the end.Lewis definitely would have passed the cars if they were driving 'normal' ..

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He also would have passed them if he hadn't driven off-track (lucky there was paved run-off, not gravel like China) or if his McLaren hadn't had technical problems. Perhaps the FIA should investigate McLaren quality control as Lewis's car was the main cause for him to lose the championship!

It's pretty pathetic to hear the blind McLaren fans go on with their "he would have won if...but...maybe...perhaps...if only..."

Face it! Lewis lost the championship ON THE TRACK, not once, but in TWO races. Perhaps RD should have appealed the loss in China since the gravel was too deep!

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Originally Posted by gm99

McLaren should not try to win in the courtroom a championship that they lost on track.

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But that's what Ferrari did!

Sorry, had to play devil's advocate :devil: