Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that says Champ Car does not answer the bell in 2008...

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Originally Posted by tbyars

in the position CCWS is in right now, in mid October, with no more than 2 or 3 races/venues having announced firm dates for the 2008 season which begins in just a few months.

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actually my count is 7, or 8 with the vegas date originally on their website which has since been removed.

06-Apr-2008 Las Vegas *
20-Apr-2008 Long Beach
27-Apr-2008 Houston
18-May-2008 Laguna Seca
22-June-2008 Cleveland
06-Jul-2008 Toronto
20-Jul-2008 Edmonton
10-Aug-2008 Road America

All confirmed either by the venue, with ticket renew notices or, in the case of a couple, confirmed when the ALMS schedule was announced with double header weekends with Champ Car.

* Vegas date was originally on their website but is no longer.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Another time....can't remember the race but it was on late over here (about 10pm GMT)....I switched on at the correct time, to discover that because the WTCC coverage had over-run, they went to the live coverage of the CC race half-way through.

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that was san jose in 2006. i agree with you that eurosport's coverage is *****

Sanguin:

Oh.

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The Champ Car World Series officials have confirmed to PaddockTalk that their calendar will be released within the next few weeks.

The 2008 Champ Car calendar is currently being reviewed by the FIA, who are due to meet to ratify the schedule.

It would be reasonable to expect that Champ Car are double and triple checking their events to avoid race cancellations that have plagued the series over the last couple of seasons.

Champ Car staff were cagy about the details, but they were confident that they will have enough cars on the grid next year.

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http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html...icle&sid=69619

Next few weeks.....that's really nailing it down. I can't see any more than Bob Garage has that are relatively secure.

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Originally Posted by BobGarage

actually my count is 7, or 8 with the vegas date originally on their website which has since been removed.

06-Apr-2008 Las Vegas *
20-Apr-2008 Long Beach
27-Apr-2008 Houston
18-May-2008 Laguna Seca
22-June-2008 Cleveland
06-Jul-2008 Toronto
20-Jul-2008 Edmonton
10-Aug-2008 Road America

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Aargh! Want to work the Toronto race, but it's same weekend as F1 at Silverstone. Anyone want to pursuade me which would be better/more enjoyable?

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Tell that to Allmendinger. CCWS got lots more media attention when AJ started winning. Even when he didn't win at Edmonton and San Jose the media was quite quick to say that he would be back to win again.

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You just made my point.
The American media only notices an American driver when they win. Look at the excitement foreign drivers get in their homeland even if they are low in the standings.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Zolder's attendance numbers were no better than Road America or Mont-Tremblant, so toss that one.

Surfers Paradise it seems is looked at as being a V8 race first CC second, and the V8s are as popular in Australia as NASCAR is in the US. What else is there, Mike? Mexico City? Sinking fast, has been since the Mexicans in both drivers and sponsors went away.

Is it CC's fault that RA and M-T only got 25-30K? No. The promoter is responsible for his attendance. But he cannot promote easily if CCWS' product sucks. That isn't rocket science.

.

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Zolder definitely had better attendance than RA and Mont-Tremblant even with the high ticket prices. With all the publicity Road America has received being the great American road race venue the attendance was disappointing. Your constantly developing schedules with venues that fail in attracting attendance.

Why you constantly say the series sucks is beyond me. The entire year track records have been broken with the DP01 but you like to ignore those facts. The racing has been great both up front and back in the field. New drivers and teams have been competitive with the series top teams. So in your opinion the racing suck? I guess ignorance is bliss to make your point.

Australia will have a huge Champ Car race day attendance unlike Road America that brought in another high profile series.

Champ Car needs 4 Mexican drivers. That will bring back the Mexican attendance and sponsors. Notice I did not say 4 top Mexican drivers. Mexicans support their drivers as do other countries.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Nice. You've just proven to me you are an elitist, and those people tick me off. What happened to CART, anyways? .

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CART did well even without the I500. It was a conspiracy between IMS and Honda that forced CART to use there own funds to race their final year. Until that point the IMS series was floundering and even with the switch of those CART teams to the IMS series attendance did not follow.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

They weren't as you put it "big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round". They got famous because the bast drivers in America were there. Star power is what draws fans, and that can be either in machinery or drivers.

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One correction CART had the best drivers in the WORLD. CART from 1983 to 1991 was dominated by American drivers in the top 10 but from 1992 through 2004, foreign drivers started to dominate the top 10 positions in the series. It was names like Fittipaldi, Mansell, Villeneuve, Zanardi, Montoya, deFerran, daMatta, Tracy and Bourdais that were on top of the series and brought world attention to CART. That opened the eyes of a man named Bernie.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

ALMS and to a lesser extent Grand-Am works off the machinery aspect and quite successfully. CC is a spec series, which means the path to success goes through the drivers - who are roated around frequently for the next sucker with a bank account.

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Two point ALMS and Grand Am are not the big draw in attendance that you claim but then again you are happy with pooly attended races.

The biggest bank account in AOWR is at IMS. If it were not for IMS there would not be an IMS series.

The once great race in America, the I500 in case you forgot, was sold out from one year to the next. Now they promote the race 365 days a year and still need gimmicks to entice people to the race.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Combine that with an arrogant attitude, jerkoff fans, a bad reputation as a business and virtually no promotion whatsoever and you go from CART in 2001 to where we are now.

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An arrogant attitude? Every OWRS owner will talk to their fans at every venue. That cant be said about any other series.
Those jerkoff fans you talk about are at their venues the first day the track is opens through race day. Unlike other seres who's fans just attend race day.
A bad reputation as a business? Name another series that has stabilized their series with the main components that make up the product, like an engine and electronics and key venues etc.

No promotion? I guess you did not get your complimintary subscription to AutoWeek. CC has explored different avinues of promotion every year including the latest TV package and marketing companies. Have they work out NOT as expected but they are constantly looking for improvements. What do you do when you hire the best marketing firm in the business and it does not meet expectations? You move on.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Champ Car is responsible for its own success, or lack thereof. That hasn't sunk in yet to you, sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists. Think about this, Mike. Is CC better than it was four years ago? No, it isn't. And don't give me the victim BS either, because if you think F1 or NASCAR give a rats behind about Champ Car you are royally, badly delusional.
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Is CC better than it was four years ago? Talk about the blind leading the blind. With all the investments that OWRS has made is securing both Champ Car and the Atlantics series along with attempts to improve TV packages how can you suggest that the series is not better than four years ago.

F1 and NASCAR are huge series on their own turf. F1 is not that popular in America as NASCAR is not that popular in the world. Champ Car is carving it's own way in the WORLD. Unlike the other AOW series, Champ Car is not NASCAR without fenders and thank god Champ Car is not the elitist F1.

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Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Mike, you seem to me like a reasonable, intelligent person. So, why in the heck are you stumping for the morons at CC HQ instead of standing up and barking like most of us here for them to get off their arses and fix this series? That goes to sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists too.

Why are we having to debate the problems? Any idiot can see them.

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Because you are one of the little people that believes that management and the rich are automaticlly the cause of all problems you can't see the good that has been done. When changes are made in a company they are made with the intent that it will make the company better. Changes have been made year after year in Champ Car, some have worked and some have not.

Low level people have solutions to every problem but when it comes to implementing their plans they always fall short mainly because their plans was not though out
completely or they never had the funds to act.

Shooting from the hip is always easy, hitting the target is the hard part.

My guess is, you are one that prefers instant oatmeal over the process of cooking a great oatmeal. The longer cooked oatmeal not only tastes better but it satisifies for a much longer time. The Champ Car process is like cooking a great oatmeal. Once you have all the ingrediants in place there will be nothing better. It's not there yet because they have not put together all the right ingrediants but it will come together.

So when was the last time you talked to Kevin?
Every year at Cleveland he has taken time to talk to me. It may be for only 5 minutes but he does communicate to the fans of Champ Car. To me that is important.

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Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

Aargh! Want to work the Toronto race, but it's same weekend as F1 at Silverstone. Anyone want to pursuade me which would be better/more enjoyable?

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july in northamptonshire: wet, windy, miserable
july in toronto: warm, sunny, enjoyable

;)

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Originally Posted by mike15

You just made my point.
The American media only notices an American driver when they win. Look at the excitement foreign drivers get in their homeland even if they are low in the standings.

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Really? When has Danica won a race? Marco got alot of press finishing 2nd at Indy. M. Waltrip is having a stellar season (not), yet I see his name in the media all the time. In other sports, the Cubs get alot of play in the media for finding ways to lose.

Keep trying. You haven't made your point yet.

Since it's directed at Brent, I'll leave it to him for long-form answer.

"A CONSPIRACY between IMS and Honda that forced CART to use its (sic) own funds to race its (sic) final year."

Just what would that be? Honda wasn't running in CART. Honda was running in the IRL. IMS was not running in CART. IMS conducted an IRL race.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

The manufacturers pay the bills and they still need an audience to justify it. So you're think a tv pkg between SPEED and CBS is better than CC's on one network? No way. Have you seen the ALMS races on CBS? they are pretaped and cut to fit a time slot. They're awful. CC just got their tv pkg. They haven't had one full year with their new partner yet. Last year some races were still on other networks. They also have atlantics on ABC/ESPN.
The truth is F1 ,ALMS, GA, IRL, CC and other series all have bad ratings. This is not unique to CC at all. Even Nascar is on 2 year low.

It is a good one and an asset for CC.

IMO

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Sorry, though they may be the same family of networks, Having races constantly switching between ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN Classic is not on ONE NETWORK, that's 4. Frequently those four channels are spread across 150 channels on the cable tuner and Classic, NEWS and Deportes are scattered all over the premium area of the digital area I don't get without dropping close to 2 bills a month.

of course they weren't going to promote the competetors events, but hey might have run even a handful of spots all year cross promoting between their own programming. If they don't get the money from the advertising, there is no incentive for the network to promote the events. do you see how often they run promos and full commercials for the IRL and NASCAR events. That's the level that CCWS needs to spend on the TV deal alone.
It's little different than what we have had last year and this season with those in addition to NBC and CBS if they continue to be an independently produced time buy. There is no and will be be no poromotion if CCWS doesn't pay for it, and their track record says thay won't at any where near the level needed.

Pick a channel and stay there.

I'd love to be such an optomist as you are about CC, but as they say "reality bites" and my a$$ is getting sore from 13 years of all this crap. End it.

I see this thread is going off topic and discussing the SAME old issues yet again, but from the title of the thread, how about we DO actually pair up and accept these $5 bets? The loser can send a nice crisp $5 bill to the winner after the first race weekend! :)

I offer my $5 that CCWS WILL answer the bell in 2008. Who's going to say nay?

I'll put $5 on Champ Car too, PV.

Jeff

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Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

I see this thread is going off topic and discussing the SAME old issues yet again, but from the title of the thread, how about we DO actually pair up and accept these $5 bets? The loser can send a nice crisp $5 bill to the winner after the first race weekend! :)

I offer my $5 that CCWS WILL answer the bell in 2008. Who's going to say nay?

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Not me

I think Champcar answering the bell is a fair bet - but I would not bet on them lasting the entire "round"

I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

I got my Long Beach CC tickets for 2008 today. I do not think CC would fold if they were sending tickets before the current season has yet to finish.

Phoenix did....then recalled 'em.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Phoenix did....then recalled 'em.

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And the day that happened, I said straight up that the race was never going to happen. From a printer's standpoint, their cover story was obviously a lie.

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Originally Posted by CCFanatic

I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

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I bet Vegas loves you ;)

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Originally Posted by CCFanatic

I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

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I'll bet this too.

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Originally Posted by BobGarage

06-Apr-2008 Las Vegas *
20-Apr-2008 Long Beach
27-Apr-2008 Houston
18-May-2008 Laguna Seca
22-June-2008 Cleveland
06-Jul-2008 Toronto
20-Jul-2008 Edmonton
10-Aug-2008 Road America

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add IRP, Phoenix International Raceway, Iowa Speedway, New Hampshire and Richmond International Raceway and I'll bet the 5er and go to all the races and drink the coolaid.

To CCFanatic you wrote:I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

*LOL* I'll take that bet, heck I'll have your $10 in my pocket re. F1 and Nascar, THEN we'll worry about the CCWS $5, either way I'm ahead... very funny stuff...

http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/sport/motorsp ... t.asp?art={9A1AA1F8-512D-4C39-B3CE-D362CC35DA37}

If you can read Dutch, CCWS driver Jan Heylen doubts CCWS will exist in 2008, so I gues he ain't taking the bet either !!!

I've got 5 bucks that says the Sun will explode and destroy the Earth, and CC will still be around! Beat that for confidence!

;)

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Originally Posted by SoCalPVguy

http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/sport/motorsp ... t.asp?art={9A1AA1F8-512D-4C39-B3CE-D362CC35DA37}

If you can read Dutch, CCWS driver Jan Heylen doubts CCWS will exist in 2008, so I gues he ain't taking the bet either !!!

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Most of that goes back to that he wants to get paid. CC drivers who are not top drivers do not get paid. Well they do, but not enough for them to be happy. So what does Jan do, he blasts the series, just like Bobby Rahal and the otehr guys who took the yen and went to the League. They said the series won't last, yet the series is still here. Jan is just angered that he won't be able to race there anymore. Angered that he is unable to scrap up any funds to race in one of the most affordable series in the world.

But what I do not get, is who is Jan, a relative unknown to the world, to run his mouth about the future of the series for which he is not much of a big shot in. If it was Paul Tracy or Alex Tagliani who said these things then I might question, but it is Jan Heylan. A guy whose career highlights end at a 2004 German F3 Championship and a win in the 2002 FF Festival.

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Originally Posted by CCFanatic

Most of that goes back to that he wants to get paid. CC drivers who are not top drivers do not get paid. Well they do, but not enough for them to be happy. So what does Jan do, he blasts the series, just like Bobby Rahal and the otehr guys who took the yen and went to the League. They said the series won't last, yet the series is still here. Jan is just angered that he won't be able to race there anymore. Angered that he is unable to scrap up any funds to race in one of the most affordable series in the world.

But what I do not get, is who is Jan, a relative unknown to the world, to run his mouth about the future of the series for which he is not much of a big shot in. If it was Paul Tracy or Alex Tagliani who said these things then I might question, but it is Jan Heylan. A guy whose career highlights end at a 2004 German F3 Championship and a win in the 2002 FF Festival.

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A correction from Jan on AR1-

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The author said he doubts Champ Car will make it in 2008 but Jan Heylen told Autoracing1.com today that those were not his words and that Champ Car has been a great series and he is trying to put a deal together for 2008 in Champ Car. To cover his bases in case it does not work out in Champ Car, yes he is looking at ALMS and Grand-Am too.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

A correction from Jan on AR1-

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AR1 is good for at least one correction. Thank you. You corrected my post.

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Originally Posted by CCFanatic

But what I do not get, is who is Jan, a relative unknown to the world, to run his mouth about the future of the series for which he is not much of a big shot in. If it was Paul Tracy or Alex Tagliani who said these things then I might question, but it is Jan Heylan. A guy whose career highlights end at a 2004 German F3 Championship and a win in the 2002 FF Festival.

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Would he not be the kind of driver that teams would look for to race in an inreasingly European-orientated CCWS series? Someone who the "local" Europeans may have heard of and would be attractive to circuits and promoters to help put bums on seats at events?

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Originally Posted by Andrewmcm

Would he not be the kind of driver that teams would look for to race in an inreasingly European-orientated CCWS series? Someone who the "local" Europeans may have heard of and would be attractive to circuits and promoters to help put bums on seats at events?

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sorry, until he appeared in CC most Europeans hadn't heard of him either!

It feels like I gave up on CCWS this year. I think there is a possibility they will just sell the decent venues after Mexico.

The big mistake made I believe is that they didn't realize they had to see 2007 as a spending year. They spent loads of money on a new car and TV-deals but left it half-done there. I also get the impression they cut down on marketing the events. If I am right KK also handed over the control to Steve Johnson much more than before. During the whole 2007 season almost nothing positive have been announced. I am not sure when Johnson took over but last year at least things happened.

I think if they wanted to build the series with a new car they had to invest in more teams. Why spend loads of money on a new product if you don't do any marketing? It seems like they made a fundamental error here.

On the other hand of course, subsidizing teams is no guarantee they would have stayed, many might have done a one year like American Spirit in 02.

I think I might take the bet but that is only $4.80 Cdn.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

I think I might take the bet but that is only $4.80 Cdn.

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OT, but I thought the exchange rate was so now that the US dollar was less than the Canadian?

Right. So $5 US is worth $4.80 Cdn. Despite this some merchants in Buffalo were wanting a $1.40 Cdn. for items @ $1 US last week!
Back in the 70's when the Cdn dollar was worth as much as $1.10 US we always bought US dollars before we left to race in the US. Near the border Cdn. dollars usually were accepted (not always) but at the best at par. Get out of a border state and good luck trying to use Cdn. money.
Admittedly part of the reason was the different banking system. Our banks are country wide and even the smallest branch is used to foriegn exchange and always have US money on hand and know the rates. Oops a little off topic.

Dr. Kavorkian to the front office, this thread is in need of your services!

Mike15, I could respond to all of your points one by one, but you are too ignorant to listen to anything I or any of the rest of the people who aren't Kalkhoven apologists have to say.

And if CC doesn't have a 2008, don't bother with writing about how it's the fault of TG, Bernie Ecclestone, Brian France, Honda, Toyota, God, the US Government or any other dumbarse conspiracy theories. Because that will just prove how ignorant you are. You form minute one to me have been stooping for these guys, no matter what they've done. I've never figured out why, but I have come to see that even if I could figure it out it would just tell me that CC's diehards are too dumb, too blind, too obsessed with Anton "Tony" Hulman George to see the truth.

The odds are against CC having another year. Why? Because what they had in 2004 was there. It wasn't much, but it was something to build on. They have tossed all of that away, leaving just "support the cause" as a rally cry, as something to draw on. And it isn't working. And until CC realizes that playing to the market that built you will save them, things will not change. I think it's very nearly too late.

So, you gonna see the truth, or are you gonna like a total idiot when CC closes the doors and Anton wins?

They in 2004 shoulda kept the diverse schedule to whatever extent possible, kept the CART name (because it was known), keep as many of the stars they had, take what they had, stabilize it and then build on it. KK went looking for fast cash. And it has mutated the series into something that looks nothing like what we all hoped and prayed for the amigos to save in the winter of 2004.

But don't worry, just F TG some more, right?

Wake up, Mike.

I posted the original though back on October 25th 2006.

Given the news, all of it bad, since then, I stand behind it now.

All it would take is one team (Haas, etc...) to take up an IRL offer of free chassis and support and jump to the Indy League and CCWS is done foe befoe the first event.

Long Beach is still about 90 days away with four confirmed rides and look what has happened in the last 90 days and project that to what could happen in the next... I am convinced, given the articles written by knowledgeable jouranlists, that there is something happening behind the scenes that the sanguine fanatics cannot comprehend.

I know the sanguine fanatics will still take the bet, but the question of the day is now, of those wanted my five bucks back in October, who still wants to take this bet ???

I'll take the bet.

2008 goes on as planned. It isn't over until GF and KK says it is.

Haas said they aren't going this year. I doubt they would go at all if there's no merger.

No, Haas did NOT say he's not going this year. Read it again.

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Originally Posted by indycool

No, Haas did NOT say he's not going this year. Read it again.

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The bet is on.

You and SoCal bet all you want, but that Haas said he wasn't changing is patently untrue from Miller's commentary. He didn't say he was or he wasn't.