What Happens Next?

I think to bring things on to going forward, we should look at what will happen, and what we want to happen.

I want there to be some sort of merger with one series that makes economic sense.

The reality is, unless the CCWS changes a few things and learns to market their series to the same market (rather than chasing niches or markets), they wont be a success, at least not to the extent some of you think they are now.

CCWS can survive but it will take more capital, a good schedule and sticking to the plan. The only plan they have used so far is Chaos...

I think a schedule that is about 50% North American, 50% other MIGHT work, but it should have been an evolution, and not be at the expense of American Venues. It isn't that I am in love with America, but it is because this is, for better or worse an American based series, and that is part of the marketing angle that even KK is admitting to using right now.

I think CART had the right idea going to Europe, but they didn't stay, and Champ Car was wrong not to follow up in the same markets. Now they are back, and Assen is a great event, Zolder might be, but Eurospeedway put on a great show, had full stands........and was forgotten about. Changing the agenda over a 3 year period like this, while marketing American racing to Europe is just silly. Nothing was more American than oval racing...and yet KK is running from that legacy.

No, to become f1 lite isn't the future. Race in Europe, Asia, and OZ, and do it at good venues, but don't dump on what history you hate, and promote the stuff you like....

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

But who fills those shoes?

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I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

I think I know what happens next, but I'm not saying ....yet.

:s mokin:

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Originally Posted by sanguin

I think I know what happens next, but I'm not saying ....yet.

:s mokin:

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We can hardly wait.

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Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins

I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

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Actually, I think Doc said he was a former insider as I am as well. And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance? Posters have questioned why I would come to this site to comment. Let me ask those folks, if you had stood strongly behind the Principals of CCWS (and in many of our cases, spent serious time & $) and they had treated you as they have so many people, would you not have an interest in seeing the outcome of this series...sort of like an MPG or JDSU Shareholder? Let's throw out some of us, such as Tommy Kendall, John Thawley, Emmerson Fittipaldi (yes, Emmo too), Wendy Gabers, David Clare, Todd Benne, myself, Gordon Kirby, etc.

St. Hubbins, I can't speak for Doc or most of the others, but i can say that many of us simply don't believe that Champcar can go forward the way it's being run...to now hear that Tags never received his '04 $ from PG (as a series owner) cements the feelings of many of us. And to Skid Marx, Garyshell and those who feel we should all bear our identities, you folks clearly aren't current or past insiders or you would know the answer to why those of us with an ounce of intelligence would not want that. if it's jealosy, BELIEVE me, it's not something you want to have...and for those who would still want to push, I, for one, can answer questions about the time I was there that no one other than an insider could answer...so bring it on if you must...and eat crow when you know the truth!

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

Actually, I think Doc said he was a former insider as I am as well. And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance? Posters have questioned why I would come to this site to comment. Let me ask those folks, if you had stood strongly behind the Principals of CCWS (and in many of our cases, spent serious time & $) and they had treated you as they have so many people, would you not have an interest in seeing the outcome of this series...sort of like an MPG or JDSU Shareholder? Let's throw out some of us, such as Tommy Kendall, John Thawley, Emmerson Fittipaldi (yes, Emmo too), Wendy Gabers, David Clare, Todd Benne, myself, Gordon Kirby, etc.

St. Hubbins, I can't speak for Doc or most of the others, but i can say that many of us simply don't believe that Champcar can go forward the way it's being run...to now hear that Tags never received his '04 $ from PG (as a series owner) cements the feelings of many of us. And to Skid Marx, Garyshell and those who feel we should all bear our identities, you folks clearly aren't current or past insiders or you would know the answer to why those of us with an ounce of intelligence would not want that. if it's jealosy, BELIEVE me, it's not something you want to have...and for those who would still want to push, I, for one, can answer questions about the time I was there that no one other than an insider could answer...so bring it on if you must...and eat crow when you know the truth!

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There are a lot of people on here who claim inside information. I know from a few of my friends I see at Toronto and ALMS every year that there people in CCWS positions that read this board. I know this because they tell me face to face they figured out who Iam, but hey, I am not an insider. I am a fan, who happens to volunteer to work at races. I base anything I say based on my opinion only formed from the facts at hand.

The "insiders" that many often question will either have their status confirmed or dismissed by what they say, and how events turn out. Often how they state their opinion can give the game away. I don't need to grill anyone, I can guess on people's cred by what they say, and how things turn out. "Dr. Jack Miller" has claimed this status, and I have no idea where he came from, but he is asking very intelligent and pertinent questions, so I think no matter where he came from, he is very credbile. Some others are maybe not as obvious, but they are out there, and I will let you guys decide who you want to fight with or agree with. You will anyhow...

Heelntoe, as for your statement there is a mountain of bodies that have been heaved over the side, you are right on. It bothers me the quality of the people of used to work for this series that do not now....and at some point, it strains all reason to believe they all got stupid over night......

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Heelntoe, as for your statement there is a mountain of bodies that have been heaved over the side, you are right on. It bothers me the quality of the people of used to work for this series that do not now....and at some point, it strains all reason to believe they all got stupid over night......

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Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way), jumps into the pool. Gary and Skid I can handle as they just want to see something good happen with the series (oh, and Jimispeed, who I think is great). The sad part is that this series is grasping at straws that aren't in any of their drinks! I will go out on the limb to predict a few things: Paul N is out after this year as Joann wants him home and the series is failing; GF sells to Tony Cochrane or someone else as he's totally fed up with KK and PG; Rocketsports folds, which it should anyway; Vegas gets shut down unless KK foots the bill; and China remains only something to serve food on. I'm sorry for my cynicism, but I know thhese guys and they can't get past themselves.

This thread has certainly brought out a lot of opinions, and that's a good thing. Starter, I realize it may be a bit annoying that most threads start out talking about the actual racing, and then it turns into politics again. But the split is so all consumming, and I think if there is one thing that binds all of us here, as well as in the IRL forums, is that we want the split to end and get back to just the racing. I think we as a group need to continue to advance that idea with every once of sweat that we can.

DrJack in one of his last posts here, agai asked "What happens next?" I don't want to run that question into the ground Doc, because you have gotten a lot of responses here to that query. I had planned to write a long response to you last post, but I think I'll keep it short this time. None of us knows what happens next, we can only give an opinion as to what we think should happen next. This mostly from a CC viewpoint, but hey, this is a CC forum.

1) Get rid of Paul Gentillozzi as a CCWS series owner (you gotta let him own a team). I don't deny his passion, just his judgement. He is a cancer that seems to be growing, and after killing Trans Am, now his bad judgement seems to have more influence than his investment in CCWS is worthy of (according to some, he hasn't even paid his shares yet).

2) CCWS must never promote an event they don't even have locked down yet. Even a high school athletic director vying for a county wide basketball tourney knows that much.

3) The IRL must quit waiting for the other OWS shoe to drop. CC is just as determined as the IRL, and neither side is accomplishing anything.

4) Merge the two series, with both being prepared to sacrifice something. Once this is done, just hand the keys of Open Wheel Racing over to Roger Penske for 3-5 years and let him have at it, with input from Bryan Barnhart and Tony Cotman. You have to give the IRL its props for a great job at Belle Isle over this past weekend and the lion's share of that must go to Penske. The Captain clearly gets it when it comes to promoting an event, attracting fans, and making the fans feel comfortable and appreciated once they get there. The was proven true when he either created or took over venues like Michigan and Fontana, and how that fan regard took a nose dive once ISC got their mitts on them. Penske knows how to sweat the details, and make the fans want to come back. Let The Captain steer the ship, and he will take us all to the Open Wheel promised land...

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way), jumps into the pool. Gary and Skid I can handle as they just want to see something good happen with the series (oh, and Jimispeed, who I think is great). The sad part is that this series is grasping at straws that aren't in any of their drinks! I will go out on the limb to predict a few things: Paul N is out after this year as Joann wants him home and the series is failing; GF sells to Tony Cochrane or someone else as he's totally fed up with KK and PG; Rocketsports folds, which it should anyway; Vegas gets shut down unless KK foots the bill; and China remains only something to serve food on. I'm sorry for my cynicism, but I know these guys and they can't get past themselves.

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Thanks for the kind words, I have great regard for your posts as well. Cache and Sanguin could be the same guy or not, it makes no difference. I wont let lies and stupidity pollute the board if I can refute with logic and reality.

You, Gary, Skid, Jimi ( who doesn't love Jimi's faith? ) and others have been great to argue with, agree with and be a fan with over my time on this board. There are others (Hey, you know who you are) as well, and I think what unites most of us is that we want this series to succeed. I used to be just a fan, and always took the defensive to defend this series and where it stood, but this year, I just realized that the Amigo's are just not getting it done. I like Kalkoven, but I think he has tacitly let Forsythe and Gentilozzi run things, and it shows this year. Yes we have a new car, but that seemed to be where the good news stopped. Europe has turned out to be good news,but lets face it, when you are failing in your core market, it is like saying your hubcaps look great, but you still don't know what to do with all the rust on the body.

I think Champ Car soldiers on next year, but Newman will be out soon ( I cant imagine he likes what he see's) and NH goes to the IRL if not next year but the following year. IF Forsythe sold to Cochrane, I would cheer this on, for I don't think Gerry really should be in the promotion/ownership side of this series. I think we may see some new series, but I bet Vegas will follow Phoenix, and there will be doubts on other venues. If Champ Car makes the leap to international venues and makes them pay, without losing teams, they have a fighting chance, but by failing in their core market, they send a message that they are flailing about without a direction or an idea where the fans went. It just is sad, and while this wouldn't have been the fate of CART if the IRL never happened, one can just weep at just how much healthier OW racing would be on this continent if Tony had been more constructive and not destructive.

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Originally Posted by Chaparral66

This thread has certainly brought out a lot of opinions, and that's a good thing. Starter, I realize it may be a bit annoying that most threads start out talking about the actual racing, and then it turns into politics again. But the split is so all consumming, and I think if there is one thing that binds all of us here, as well as in the IRL forums, is that we want the split to end and get back to just the racing. I think we as a group need to continue to advance that idea with every once of sweat that we can.

DrJack in one of his last posts here, agai asked "What happens next?" I don't want to run that question into the ground Doc, because you have gotten a lot of responses here to that query. I had planned to write a long response to you last post, but I think I'll keep it short this time. None of us knows what happens next, we can only give an opinion as to what we think should happen next. This mostly from a CC viewpoint, but hey, this is a CC forum.

1) Get rid of Paul Gentillozzi as a CCWS series owner (you gotta let him own a team). I don't deny his passion, just his judgement. He is a cancer that seems to be growing, and after killing Trans Am, now his bad judgement seems to have more influence than his investment in CCWS is worthy of (according to some, he hasn't even paid his shares yet).

2) CCWS must never promote an event they don't even have locked down yet. Even a high school athletic director vying for a county wide basketball tourney knows that much.

3) The IRL must quit waiting for the other OWS shoe to drop. CC is just as determined as the IRL, and neither side is accomplishing anything.

4) Merge the two series, with both being prepared to sacrifice something. Once this is done, just hand the keys of Open Wheel Racing over to Roger Penske for 3-5 years and let him have at it, with input from Bryan Barnhart and Tony Cotman. You have to give the IRL its props for a great job at Belle Isle over this past weekend and the lion's share of that must go to Penske. The Captain clearly gets it when it comes to promoting an event, attracting fans, and making the fans feel comfortable and appreciated once they get there. The was proven true when he either created or took over venues like Michigan and Fontana, and how that fan regard took a nose dive once ISC got their mitts on them. Penske knows how to sweat the details, and make the fans want to come back. Let The Captain steer the ship, and he will take us all to the Open Wheel promised land...

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Uh oh Chap, now you are making sense. Better stop that, and duck. A lot of irrational hatred is out there for Penske, since they blame him for CART's demise and the demise of a lot of things, not to mention leaving CART after leading CART to fight the IRL in the first place.

The first rule of leadership is the ability to change directions and not lose people. Penske lost a few of us, but he has credability and as his promotion in Belle Isle and running the Super Bowl has proven, he understands how to promote a race, how to organize it, and how to make money off of it. 3 things Iam not entirely sure the Amigos have a handle on yet.

As for Paul Gentilozzi, the man killed Trans AM in the most gruesome way, so there is now way I would let him run anything. He was dumb enough to try to save Trans AM when he didn't have the money......and it needed more help than just about any pro series after it was run down by.....Steve Johnson. So why is Steve there and why is Paul making decisions. I thought KK was the chief partner? Enough of all of em...a pox ontheir house....

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance?

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A question worth answering. I'm willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but yes, I'm skeptical. Now that doesn't mean I call BS on everything an "insider" says, but I don't go the other way and and accept everything someone says, just because he's an "insider". All I'm doing is questioning, and willing to continue to read DrJack's and other's responses so I can make up my own mind about how I feel about them.

But frankly, I'm finding the pro-irl faction in the CC forum a bit old, and I was trying to get from DrJack his intention and direction. As I'd mentioned in a previous post, I like quid pro quo. I think that's only fair.

I'm losing faith with KK et al, and in the article posted by AR1, KK said the 2008 schedule would be submitted to FIA in mid-October, which seems to be too late to get any sort of sponsorship dollars for next year.

While I'm not in the racing industry, I am in sales, and know that many companies are working on (or finished with) their catalogs for next year. In my industry, October is too late for next year, so I don't know what will happen next.

Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football.

In a way, I envy most of you, insiders and out, who describe themselves as completely absorbed race fans (my words). That is, you have a passion for racing that burns from your heart, and love any and all forms of racing. Compared to you, I'm little more than a casual fan, although I'm really somewhere in between the man-on-the-street-casual fan and you. I doubt I'd watch the irl if tg were involved if there were a merger, but take him out of the equation, and I would follow it. If CC went away, and there was only the irl, but tg involved, I'd move on and find something else to do.

It'd be like a death in the family for me. There'd be a hole in my heart where good racing used to be, but I'd eventually accept it and move on with my life.

So for a second answer to DrJack's question of "What happens next?" I guess I have to ask: For whom?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Thanks for the kind words, I have great regard for your posts as well. Cache and Sanguin could be the same guy or not, it makes no difference. I wont let lies and stupidity pollute the board if I can refute with logic and reality.

You, Gary, Skid, Jimi ( who doesn't love Jimi's faith? ) and others have been great to argue with, agree with and be a fan with over my time on this board. There are others (Hey, you know who you are) as well, and I think what unites most of us is that we want this series to succeed. I used to be just a fan, and always took the defensive to defend this series and where it stood, but this year, I just realized that the Amigo's are just not getting it done. I like Kalkoven, but I think he has tacitly let Forsythe and Gentilozzi run things, and it shows this year. Yes we have a new car, but that seemed to be where the good news stopped. Europe has turned out to be good news,but lets face it, when you are failing in your core market, it is like saying your hubcaps look great, but you still don't know what to do with all the rust on the body.

I think Champ Car soldiers on next year, but Newman will be out soon ( I cant imagine he likes what he see's) and NH goes to the IRL if not next year but the following year. IF Forsythe sold to Cochrane, I would cheer this on, for I don't think Gerry really should be in the promotion/ownership side of this series. I think we may see some new series, but I bet Vegas will follow Phoenix, and there will be doubts on other venues. If Champ Car makes the leap to international venues and makes them pay, without losing teams, they have a fighting chance, but by failing in their core market, they send a message that they are flailing about without a direction or an idea where the fans went. It just is sad, and while this wouldn't have been the fate of CART if the IRL never happened, one can just weep at just how much healthier OW racing would be on this continent if Tony had been more constructive and not destructive.

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Mark, I know nothing about Tony and his reasoning, but when I look at where CART went and where CCWS is now, I see a valid argument as to why you would want to establish independence...that said, i know nothing about the politics..I was brought in in '03 and while I've owned many cars...most that wouldn't be owned by the everyday guy, I'm mostly an exec that got hornswaddled by PG and the others.

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

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Originally Posted by garyshell

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

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Maybe you should have said that earlier! As an anonymous insider, I have to agree with your assesment. Look at messages over a period of time and make your decission. Of course sometimes emotions kick in.

David, your one Quote that caught my eye and I was discussing it with one of the more interesting "insiders" who knows people in the IRL and the quote you said was:

"Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football."

The problem is, in North America, you cannot have a conversation about Open Wheel without dealing with the Speedway and Tony George. He has the football that people are still caring about, although to a lesser degree. It has been said that Tony is the cause of the upheaval in the sport, but short of his utter defeat, as long as he runs the IRL, then there will be a split fan base. There isn't enough fans of either series to make either one really succeed. What bothers me is the CCWS has almost done themselves in by their lack of professional leadership though because now the IRL has no reason to think twice about their course. They THINK they are on the right course and by CCWS losing events and teetering on the brink, no one at 16th and Georgetown will really listen to a merger or any new ideas. CCWS is too arrogant to realizing they are losing fans like myself, who know when they are being conned, and there is a legion of people out there apparently that wont do business with the Amigo's, making sponsorship and promotion more difficult. So now they decide Europe is the goal, likely because they know they have salted the earth back here....meanwhile, it does NOTHING for the American base.

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

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Mark, I certainly agree with what you say about the skill set that RP has is what is needed. Whether he's the right man in particular, I won't say just yet, because I need to sleep on that one. RP's 70 this year, and while that can still be young (he's not 102 fer cryin' out loud), I wonder how long he's willing to hold up. Could be another 10-15 years, but who knows?

Right now though, off the top of my head, I don't know of anyone else who has the drive, skills, knowledge, and yes, greed (for both those around him as well as himself) to make it work.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

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Gary, I've always appreciated your conviction, just not how it's been translated :) I don't hide behind anything as I'm happy to share my experience and I've been around for a long time...this is where your argument falls on the floor... if those of us who have insider status refuse your questions of information, without identity, then there's an argument...otherwise, your question of our credibilty is empty. We don't need to share our identity for anyone!!!

Heelntoe, you do realize though it is a doubleedged sword. If you release your identity and role in the sport, then people can come at you for things you want to say but don't want to influence your position or legal status. But by being in the closet (certaintly not the closet Senator Craig is in) your influence, status and crediblity is questioned. I understand the balancing act perfectly, since I know a few lurkers out there who wont post here because they know they might give something away that might get them in trouble with management of their racing series, but at the same time, you guys have opinions that matter, and opinions that are shaped by a reality us fans wont see. I hope you never stop posting, but do tread warily, for using the "I am insider" card only will get you so far with some of these guys....

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]Uh oh Chap, now you are making sense. Better stop that, and duck. QUOTE]

Dammit! Did I do that again? I've gotta do something about that... :D

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way)

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I think you're missing one in there. If you noticed when Cache went away RGM Fan came along, and now RGM is gone and Sanguine is here...

So it appears like there are really two camps. Those like me, who are convinced a merger of some sorts is needed to lead us all to the Open Wheel Promised Land (good one Chaparral66), and those who say damn the IRL and Tony George and move on with the CCWS. I am no insider, just a fan who spends his vacations at Champ Car and F1 races. I also attend the local IRL races in Sonoma although was never a supporter of the original IRL concept of all American drivers on all oval tracks.

I wanted CART to succeed after the split, but really they lost the battle when the big teams moved to the IRL. When KK and company resurrected the series and rebadged it Champ Car I was delighted, because Champ Car represented what I wanted the series to be as the IRL still had only ovals. It also seemed like KK and TG could communicate without the hyperbole and anger that still separates many fans from agreeing on anything. My hope was together they could find common ground to a merger. Of coure this hope has never come to fruition and the recent comments in the Netherlands by the Champ Car series owners sound like they have no intention of discussing a merger or even running the Indy 500. While Indy is not the race it used to be, to ignore it and believe they can really be sucessful in the US without it is just silly. Open Wheel needs the Indy 500, because it's the only race that most Americans can identify with or even remember.

Like it or not, this is fact. A merger is a must, because if there is no merger, only the IRL will survive, and if Newman/Haas/Lanigan leave Champ Car the series WILL die. In this fans opinion NHL is really all that separates the series from being a bunch of wealthy weekend hobbiests.

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Originally Posted by LTalbot

So it appears like there are really two camps. Those like me, who are convinced a merger of some sorts is needed to lead us all to the Open Wheel Promised Land (good one Chaparral66), and those who say damn the IRL and Tony George and move on with the CCWS. I am no insider, just a fan who spends his vacations at Champ Car and F1 races. I also attend the local IRL races in Sonoma although was never a supporter of the original IRL concept of all American drivers on all oval tracks.

I wanted CART to succeed after the split, but really they lost the battle when the big teams moved to the IRL. When KK and company resurrected the series and rebadged it Champ Car I was delighted, because Champ Car represented what I wanted the series to be as the IRL still had only ovals. It also seemed like KK and TG could communicate without the hyperbole and anger that still separates many fans from agreeing on anything. My hope was together they could find common ground to a merger. Of coure this hope has never come to fruition and the recent comments in the Netherlands by the Champ Car series owners sound like they have no intention of discussing a merger or even running the Indy 500. While Indy is not the race it used to be, to ignore it and believe they can really be sucessful in the US without it is just silly. Open Wheel needs the Indy 500, because it's the only race that most Americans can identify with or even remember.

Like it or not, this is fact. A merger is a must, because if there is no merger, only the IRL will survive, and if Newman/Haas/Lanigan leave Champ Car the series WILL die. In this fans opinion NHL is really all that separates the series from being a bunch of wealthy weekend hobbiests.

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Mr. Talbot, join the club. You are not the only one thinking that. AT some point, Tony has to be dealt with because he has outspent and out lasted some pretty tough people, but in the end, CCWS is going to either fold, or sell to TG. If new owners come along, then they will have to do a LOT better job to make this series fly at this point. I see Europe as a salvation ONLY if the Amigos spend the money to make every event in North America work, and get enough Euromoney to make it happen. THAT my friends is such a long shot.....because I don't see the Amigo's doing anything over here but ticking people off.....

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Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

What Happens Next?

Well, I watched Assen and really enjoyed it. The crowd looked good and even though there was little passing, it was a tactical race much like modern Formula One. However, I can't help thinking that this is not the long term answer for Champ Car.

CCWS may well decide to have more non-Nafta races, which pay the bills and permit profitability. However, this means abandoning any hope of being a force in American Open Wheel and capturing NAFTA based sponsorship.

Now, a global model may work, if they plan carefully and target sponsors who want a global presence and can't afford Formula One. However, to capture this new money, they still have to be more professional and prove to potential sponsors that they are providing value for money. In effect, they would be marketing themselves as Formula One "Lite". If that's the way the CCWS leaders want to go then fine, but as an ardent F1 lover, I will take the real thing every time.

I fell in love with CART/Champ Car because of the multi discipline racing. Road Course, Street Course, Superspeedway and Bullring Oval. I was intrigued by the close racing and personalities. Truthfully, in any given race over 50% of all starters had a genuine chance of winning, because of the nature of the rules, cars and circuits. Finally, it was professionally run.

I support CCWS, but the leaders make it hard for you to have any confidence in what they are doing and thus the future of the sport.

I have never worked in the motorsport industry, so I really can't comment on how difficult it must be to manage and run a racing series. However, I work in Investment Banking and have for the past 14 years. I am judged on results and delivery. If I didn't deliver, then I would be fired. I manage complex projects and deal with clients every day where millions of dollars are involved. I have to make plans and decisions and think carefully about the right way forward.

Forgive me, but surely the CCWS leaders must make plans and have targets as well? Is it me, or does it appear to anyone else like the leaders are just winging it?

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Winging it on half a folded wing, spinning hopelessly earthbound like mortally wounded waterfoul. Brilliant in appearance but lifeless in reality.

You are right on the money Mark. Case in Point, most every Champ Car fan said the IRL would fail at Belle Isle, and that there was just no interest in the facility. Look what a little smart marketing does for you. Granted I only saw the ALMS and IRL races on TV, but the place was packed, and absolutly gorgeous from the air. The racing was also anything but a parade.

Talbot, I didn't see the race, so I won't comment, but the racing there was always tight, but for Champ Car fans to dumpon the place was funny. It is a street race, and if people addressed what was wrong with the circuit for facilities and access, it would succeed. Penske doesn't do this stuff to lose his money or his rep.

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Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins

I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

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As David St. Hubbins himself once said: "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." and therein lies the problem of finding the right leader. Oh, and I am not for second suggesting this person is me... LOL! I am only a racing dentist after all.

While I haven't been busy cleaning teeth I've gotten the opportunity to know or at least meet almost every CART, Champ Car and IRL leader over the years and I don't envy anyone who takes on a challenge like that.

On that subject, I think that the mean bashing that poor guys like Steve Johnson have received here is just awful given the reality of the no-win circumstances people like him face. How would you like working under four bosses who all think they are smarter than anyone born in the past seven decades? What would in be like to be blamed personally for every disaster large and small on forums like this even though you are probably not the problem. Mind you, my insight into this all could be hypothetical since chances are 50/50 that I am just another poser in a sport currently filled with them!

In hindsight, I think Andrew Craig did a decent job against a tide of negative factors ... he was worldly, he was smart and he made bold moves (Hawaii Super Prix excepted). I thought of him over the past weekend since it was at Detroit in June of 2000 that he was given the boot by the CART board and the death spiral began. One thing I liked about Andrew was that he had the usually had the sense to consider both sides of an issue before acting (again, Hawaii Super Prix excepted). He also came from a successful background in the greater world of international sports marketing and he understood that a sport must create commercial value not just harvest it. Was he perfect? No. Are you? Regardless, I don't want this to fall into a debate about the merits of Andrew personally (there are probably several flaming threads the subject already) but someone with his background (he had motorsports experience as well) fits the bill in my book -- but only in a unified series.

The big picture issue I see is that the IRL was created to benefit American oval track promoters (TG and IMS in particular) and now that reality has taken hold, TG has had to change his tune to stay in the game--but he is still promoter-centric in his thinking. Champ Car is still effectively run for the benefit of its equity holding entrants but the Amigos have, by necessity also become promoters... (like many of the CART owners were). Given how much both sides collectively waste in capital -- both financial and human -- each year, it strikes me that there has to be common ground in this somewhere. A third way, if you will, of looking at the overall business must be found that takes care of everyone in the sports financial ecosystem if it is ever to prosper again.

One last point about insiders: The committed customer is the ultimate insider. They hold the real power in my view -- especially if they are positive and energetic. The rush to reach the casual fan always strikes me as odd if a sport fails to build something worthy of the new fans staying interested or inspiring existing avid fans to engage in the best marketing there is: good old fashioned word of mouth (or click of a mouse).

I can't help but think a positive "what happens next" could change everything if it was about racing, personalities and something fresh -- not fear, failure and putrid ego-driven politics.

So, what happens next?

I'm just a fan.

:imubash:

:wave:

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

David, your one Quote that caught my eye and I was discussing it with one of the more interesting "insiders" who knows people in the IRL and the quote you said was:

"Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football."

The problem is, in North America, you cannot have a conversation about Open Wheel without dealing with the Speedway and Tony George. He has the football that people are still caring about, although to a lesser degree. It has been said that Tony is the cause of the upheaval in the sport, but short of his utter defeat, as long as he runs the IRL, then there will be a split fan base. There isn't enough fans of either series to make either one really succeed. What bothers me is the CCWS has almost done themselves in by their lack of professional leadership though because now the IRL has no reason to think twice about their course. They THINK they are on the right course and by CCWS losing events and teetering on the brink, no one at 16th and Georgetown will really listen to a merger or any new ideas. CCWS is too arrogant to realizing they are losing fans like myself, who know when they are being conned, and there is a legion of people out there apparently that wont do business with the Amigo's, making sponsorship and promotion more difficult. So now they decide Europe is the goal, likely because they know they have salted the earth back here....meanwhile, it does NOTHING for the American base.

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

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I agree, many think RP is the devil incarnate and as much responsible for the split, if not moreso than TG himsef. I've had my just criticism of RP in the past but he obviously knows how to read the industry.
RP is the only individual I can even come close to that satisfies all of what I would consider essential criteria for leading a merged series. He has an exceptional track record as a businessman in several aspects of the Automotive industry. Manufacture, sales, service, rental. He has an unquestionable track record as a team owner and evaluater of racing talent in almost every premier racing series he's ever touched. He owns one of the most successful and broad reaching racing empires in racing history. He built, owned, managed and promoted a very successful portfolio of racing venues and the events held there under his stewardship. He was also an owner of CART at it's most successful period ever.
Many people have said, when the music stops, Roger Penske always has a chair. Why is that? Is there ANYONE that knows racing better than Roger? RP has a crystal ball the size of Australia, and he knows how to read it. Find a more respected figure in the automotive industry. All the bile and hatred is quite honestly childish jealousy. Honda and Cosworth could yank their engines and $ tomorrow and I would bet RP could find three manufacturers WITH money for real Advertising in time for a series tomorrow IF it was for a merged series he was in charge of.

Park the damn egos, Give KK, TG equal SERIES ownership, on condition they both stay the hell out of the racing operation and hand RP autonomy to run the series. KK can continue owning the rights to the various racing venues owned by CCWS, TG can run Indy how ever he wants, but RP calls the shots on the series. He appoints the racing committee, the technical comittee that designs the regs, the marketing, everything. If a track owner doesn't promote their race, it's gone, just as it should be, I don't care who owns it. The successful venues will survive, just as they have throughout this mess. Maybe some former venues would re-surface, maybe their history is written and should stay that way. But It's going to take someone with RP's knowledge, contacts and track record to pull it off. I don't know if even Bernie would pull it off, even if he wanted to.

RP destroyed CART.

among other things ,

I think TG should let him control the IRL, oh wait, he already does! :D

You would think the IRL would be more successful by now. :p :

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

One last point about insiders: The committed customer is the ultimate insider. They hold the real power in my view -- especially if they are positive and energetic.

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Agreed to an extent. The negative or lethargic customer also has power. If enough people don't buy tickets to an event for a long enough period, be the reason hatred or apathy, then that event will go away. Case in point: people didn't buy tickets to Kelly Clarkson's concerts this summer, so she canceled them.

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

So, what happens next?

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Answer #3 (refined): Theory of evolution: adapt or die.

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

Gary, I've always appreciated your conviction, just not how it's been translated :) I don't hide behind anything as I'm happy to share my experience and I've been around for a long time...this is where your argument falls on the floor... if those of us who have insider status refuse your questions of information, without identity, then there's an argument...otherwise, your question of our credibilty is empty. We don't need to share our identity for anyone!!!

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Then why havent you responded to my last pm? :)

I agree with "Mark In Oshawa". This is the best thread I have seen recently. It is mainly about the politics of Open Wheel racing, but it is being debated in an adult manner with respect for all so far. I for one am glad that the moderator "Starter" is letting this continue.

Now back to "What Happens Next?"

Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.

A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.

The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party. However, CCWS ins't worth much. In England we have a saying...

"Mutton dressed up as Lamb"

....unfortunately, CCWS is pretty close to that. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the vernacular, it is effectively describing a situation where something looks a lot better than it actually is.

I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders. That is why CCWS is failing and will ultimately fail. Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.

I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. I even tried to get my Investment Bank involved, but for one thing or another it did not work out. I had so much hope and faith then and was so pleased when the Bankruptcy ruling went Kalkhoven's way. However, since the end of 2004, it has become more difficult to see a way forward and feel genuine hope. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.

Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.

PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.

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Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

Now back to "What Happens Next?"

Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.

A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.

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Actually ,I hope that too. I really hope TG just keeps on waiting...

But CC will not go away.

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The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party.

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No CC is not for sale, it was just recently confirmed again.

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I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders.

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I have no idea what you're talking about, the ALMS cars were as fast as the IRL cars, the race was mess and it wasn't a sellout.All you have is a opinion, its not everyone's. This is why you think CC will die? What about the races and the drivers,events and the cars, that's why we like CC.

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Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.

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They said that many times.smoke and mirrors

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I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.

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What about the racing? PR doesn't mean that much to most fans. I 'm sorry its so important to you. Maybe you can fly into Richmond next year and get your PR fix. AJ Allmendinger chose his fate,he doesn't race on sundays anymore.

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Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.

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Keep hoping, I guess we won't see you at the CC races in 2008, no PR and all. :s mokin:

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PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.

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CC will be at RA in 2008. :D

but keep hopin' and wishin'

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Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

I agree with "Mark In Oshawa". This is the best thread I have seen recently. It is mainly about the politics of Open Wheel racing, but it is being debated in an adult manner with respect for all so far. I for one am glad that the moderator "Starter" is letting this continue.

Now back to "What Happens Next?"

Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.

A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.

The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party. However, CCWS ins't worth much. In England we have a saying...

"Mutton dressed up as Lamb"

....unfortunately, CCWS is pretty close to that. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the vernacular, it is effectively describing a situation where something looks a lot better than it actually is.

I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders. That is why CCWS is failing and will ultimately fail. Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.

I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. I even tried to get my Investment Bank involved, but for one thing or another it did not work out. I had so much hope and faith then and was so pleased when the Bankruptcy ruling went Kalkhoven's way. However, since the end of 2004, it has become more difficult to see a way forward and feel genuine hope. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.

Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.

PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.

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I too am very glad this thread continued. For once, a thread that wondered off came back with some very civil and thought provoking discussions that presented a number of interesting viewpoints.

As a fan, I have no clue "what happens next" because it appears the powers in charge at CCWS don't even have a clue about their next step. If they don't know "whats next" for them, forecasting the future is a crap shoot. As a fan, I think the split has weakened both series, but perhaps is some ways a "merger" has already happened. The power teams from the old CART days are now in the IRL and the IRL has taken on the look of the old series with the addition of street and road courses.

The "new" CCWS is on a different path and is now more European in flavor with little connection to the open wheel legacy in the US. If it becomes more euro-centric, how many teams will follow? Most are based in Indianapolis and having many flyaway races just doesn't make economic sense when the financial situation is as bleak as it appears. If it folds, how many teams will continue in US open wheel? I doubt all would switch to the IRL. There are too many other racing options. Add in the lost races that won't get picked up, and the biggest losers may be the fans.

There are many factors in this dog fight, including the class action suit from JDSU that Petit and KK both face. If they lose, it will cost a bundle. The loses from CCWS may seem tiny in comparison.

The future of CCWS appears to be sitting on a knife edge. Many have claimed the Phoenix cancellation pushed them over the edge. There are many other things that can go wrong. A few ride buyers finding other options, a few events throwing in the towel, a couple teams or sponsors saying "enough". It wouldn't take much to sink this ship. The amigos think it will go the other way with new sponsors, more interest, new events, etc. But frankly I have my doubts. They missed most of their past goals.

I agree with FlatChatRacer. The result will be the last man standing.

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Originally Posted by beachbum

As a fan, I have no clue "what happens next" because it appears the powers in charge at CCWS don't even have a clue about their next step. If they don't know "whats next" for them, forecasting the future is a crap shoot. As a fan, I think the split has weakened both series, but perhaps is some ways a "merger" has already happened. The power teams from the old CART days are now in the IRL and the IRL has taken on the look of the old series with the addition of street and road courses.

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CC certainly knows their next step. Just sit back and watch.

As far as your merge stuff. It's the same old IRL it's always been and they are trying to be CART alright, it will never work though, its just a imitation along with some of the worst things about the old CART, like Belle Isle.

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The "new" CCWS is on a different path and is now more European in flavor with little connection to the open wheel legacy in the US. If it becomes more euro-centric, how many teams will follow? Most are based in Indianapolis and having many flyaway races just doesn't make economic sense when the financial situation is as bleak as it appears. If it folds, how many teams will continue in US open wheel? I doubt all would switch to the IRL. There are too many other racing options. Add in the lost races that won't get picked up, and the biggest losers may be the fans.

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huh? CC isn't folding and it won't be all euro races. where do you get this stuff,the promoters/tracks pay the sanction fees and travel. bleak??????

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There are many factors in this dog fight, including the class action suit from JDSU that Petit and KK both face. If they lose, it will cost a bundle. The loses from CCWS may seem tiny in comparison.

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desperation time ,the old lawsuit. If it even gets to court,it still has to be proven ,it could take a long time, it could get settled ,it could be dismissed or the people suing could LOSE. Regardless, a civil suit against the company and the rest will make the lawyers rich. Mark this down now, it won't make any difference to CC. NONE, As much as you're hopin' and wishin' nothing will change.

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The future of CCWS appears to be sitting on a knife edge. Many have claimed the Phoenix cancellation pushed them over the edge. There are many other things that can go wrong. A few ride buyers finding other options, a few events throwing in the towel, a couple teams or sponsors saying "enough". It wouldn't take much to sink this ship. The amigos think it will go the other way with new sponsors, more interest, new events, etc. But frankly I have my doubts. They missed most of their past goals.

I agree with FlatChatRacer. The result will be the last man standing.

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how dramatic! knifes edge? Last man standing? you guys crack me up

keep hopin' and wishin'

Sanguin, if you took off those rose coloured glasses, you would almost be mistaken for the copy guy on SNL that Jon Lovitz played. You have an answer for everything, but it is after all your opinion.

IF Belle Isle is a failure, explain why RP will have it next year? He doesn't do this for a hobby, he likes to make money off his events. ALMS said they will be there, so you know IRL is going to be there. I thought the whole idea was out to lunch,but Roger pulled it off, and people who are Champ Car fans have come on here and told me it worked out well. Geek, who is a Michgander and covers the sport told me they did just fine, and Deetroit was excited about having the race back. In short, the reality doesn't fit your view, so you slag it.

Now, this is a Champ Car thread, so I will just put that aside, but again, you say the IRL is dying, and Champ Car will prevail, and no one needs Indy.

Right, well the series that had all the teams, and all the good venues in 1996 is the one that went bankrupt. The series that came out of it was built using the best parts of the bankrupt series, and was to have the best plan and none of the baggage. Well, what do we have now? We had a race not even come off not once but TWICE. Spare me your rhetoric, I suspect if we had a informal poll here, my view of the goings on is better supported than yours. I don't have to make up anything, I just pick up the newspaper and read yet another PR screw up by Champ Car. You cant do that once a month or better for a year, and not start to have people lose faith in your operation.

Ok, enough of the negative.

IF Champ Car wants to survive, and not deal with the IRL, here is how it HAS to go. First off, make it one owner with an iron fist. Part of the misinformation issue Champ Car has is the Amigos have been caught NOT on the same page more than once. Two, Fire Steve Johnson if he doesn't bring a sponsor on board in the next 8 months for the series. I mean a sponsor that pays big dollars. Bigger than...NONE. Steve didn't make any friends at SCCA Pro, and I know this because I work for World Challenge every year, and they told me how glad they were to see him GONE. Third, the ironfisted owner has to decide on a schedule that will be made up of events that are engraved in stone, and build on them with events that he is willing to lose some money on WITH the promotor to make them happen. Phoenix should have been done, even if they had to paper the house if for no other reason than credibility. The put their legal muscle behind the effort to put that race there, and to have it go "pfft" so quickly just makes the operation look mickeymouse.

They have to buy time to get on TV, so be it, but put it on NETWORK TV, and offer it up to ESPN as well. Sell your commericials if you can, but put together a broadcast that is NOT like what they are doing now. Right now it is unwatchable. Any TV partner the series gets has to take the races live except for EXTREME situations where a prior conflict might be an issue, and then the placing of the tape delay has to be mutually agreed on and again, engraved in stone. Right now, their Canadian partner moves the race to suit THEIR sched, and it is a partner that quite frankly is unwatchable at the best of times with their constant score tickers on the bottom. They have to quit doing business with the first available suitor, and maybe they should really have to pay for a while to get better coverage. TV is the key, and it has to be a loss leader for a few years to try to rebuild an audience that has been used and abused.

They have to do NOTHING to the racing product, save put it on one or two ovals a year besides the events they have now. Lausitz should have been their first Eurostop, and Mexico has to remain part of the family. I have no idea why Forsythe quit promoting Monterray, but I would have to say it should be examined why that event failed, and something has to be learned.

Champ Car has had success in a number of markets, but instead of learning why the audience went away, they have just moved on. Why? Has a marketing study been done? That is a priority any new owner should have. Learn what is going on and why the market is going away. OW fans are by nature going to be intersted forever if they like this type of racing. Why are they NOT showing up now? What is the issue? Is it cost? Is it the promotion? is it they became fans of NASCAR? I can tell you it isn't the IRL that is getting these folks. I bet if you took a survey of fans of the IRL, most were either casual fans that got hooked, or have always been fans. Where are the Champ Car fans going? Who were all of those people who watched CART and where did they go? Was it all NASCAR. Many on the NASCAR board say yes, and they left because they saw what a joke they thought CART was becoming. Aliens didn't abduct them, so spend the money on a survey that will nail down what happened.

The New owner of Champ Car should pair up with ALMS where they can, and pair up with a partner in Europe such as LMES or the BTCC/DTM lines. Show your show off to those fans. In Asia, do an event with the Aussie v8's besides Surfers.

Expose this product as best you can, but keep the core of the series North American, with 3 events in Europe (Assen and Lausitz for sure, maybe a British venue if Zolder isn't viable) and 2 or 3 in Australasia. Maybe 2 events in Asia with 2 in Oz. That leaves 13 or so on the continent, and make the series 20 weeks. Have no more than 2 weeks between events and just go.

Spend the money on marketing, TV, and oh yes....making sure the teams can resign name drivers. Tie drivers up wherever possible to long term contracts. THat means guys like Tags, Andrew Ranger and Dominguez shouldn't have to go cap in hand begging for rides. No offense to Pags, Gommendy or Doornbos, but until they they came over, no fans here really knew who they were. How can you sell your series to Americans when you have to start from scratch every year. Have your drivers signed 2 months in advance. Just tell teams they have to get it done. Assist them to get it done.

Now I realize I have spent a lot of money here, and it aint mine. That said, if Champ Car is to be the rip roaring success you all think it is, then it should be paid back in time with profits. If it isn't, then it at least you gave it the proper effort it deserves.

Oh ya. fire the Webmaster and run professional PR relations and webblogs. Pay people to right something people want to read, and keep the webpage up to date. How many threads have I seen on here about things wrong or not changed on the site? Fix Race Director. Many people say they think it is done poorly and isn't worth the money. You cant have race fans thinking the package sucks and telling everyone that. You should be living and dying with word of mouth advertising. (I am Proof, for they have made me NOT a Champ Car fan this year by not sweating the details) I can live with Champ Car failing or succeeding if they were showing some flair in advertising and TV ,but right now, it looks like a shoe string budget and champaigne dreams.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OWFan19

Maybe you should have said that earlier! As an anonymous insider, I have to agree with your assesment. Look at messages over a period of time and make your decission. Of course sometimes emotions kick in.

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Yes maybe I should have. When I initially started this part of the discussion, I thought that was pretty clear. As things progressed it became apparent that it was not as clear as I thought.

Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sanguin

CC certainly knows their next step. Just sit back and watch.

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Very assuring, Steve Johnson. Yeah, that's what you told KK when he was in Antartica. Next time, wear your knee pads coz you'll be buzy since you know the next step you'll be doing.

Who the.... obviously, this guy is from fanatics.

Ah, it's getting annoying now. Mark in Oshawa, can you show me how that magic button works again, that ignore thing? I never get to use it. Let me see if it really works. Guys here been using it against me, now it's my turn to use it. Thanks in advance.

CART, I ignore no one, I would rather beat em over the head with some reality.....they get mad when you do that.

Funny thing is, I am getting beaten on lately by Champ Car fans, and got my cred beating on IRL trolls here......funny how I am good for the morale of the boys when I knock TG, but when I am an equal opportunity guy for the truth, and all the sudden I am full of it?

I like the debate....gives me something to do before I start hitting the road later this week. Then to paraphrase the late President Nixon: "You wont have DICK to kick around no more!!!"