The Crane and Lewis

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Originally Posted by andreag

Try this:



http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...pendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

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I dont think it stinks.

on the face of it, it looked like Lewis had been very resourceful and kept his engine going to get assistance back on track. however, as you have pointed out, he should not have been craned back on track and allowed to continue.

I very much doubt that there was any intention to break the rules and the crane operator should have waited for Lewis to get out before moving him. also, the FIA should have black flagged him but I suppose with so much else going on, nobody knew what the hell was happening.

if Lewis had of scored a point, I am sure that the other teams would have had him (rightly) disqualified from the standings. as he didn't, its not worth bothering about apart from the FIA to notify Marshalls of the correct procedure in future.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

if Lewis had of scored a point, I am sure that the other teams would have had him (rightly) disqualified from the standings. as he didn't, its not worth bothering about apart from the FIA to notify Marshalls of the correct procedure in future.

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If FIA created rules then every team and driver have to obey that rules. It doesn't matter it's Ferrari or Spyker, Hamilton or Winkelhock, race winner or last driver.

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Originally Posted by andreag

Try this:



http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...pendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

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Something that has always been obvious to me - written or not - is that you don't lift a car with the driver inside. It will be very interesting to see what happens some day if they are lifting the car with the driver inside, something goes wrong, and driver gets hurt :mark:

Is it my limited English skills or does the wording "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue" leave a opening if the marshalls want to, they can come and help even if it's not recommended?

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Is it my limited English skills or does the wording "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue" leave a opening if the marshalls want to, they can come and help even if it's not recommended?

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I think it's the former case! :p :

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Originally Posted by ojciec dyrektor

It doesn't matter it's Ferrari or Spyker, Hamilton or Winkelhock, race winner or last driver.

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To be correct you should say "McLaren or Spyker" ! ;)

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

if Lewis had of scored a point, I am sure that the other teams would have had him (rightly) disqualified from the standings. as he didn't, its not worth bothering about apart from the FIA to notify Marshalls of the correct procedure in future.

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But don't the positions outside the points figure into a constructor's ranking at the end of the season which, in turn, determines their share of FIA money?

Is there anyone who remembers any other driver being "craned" back onto the track from a position as far off the racing surface as LH was during a race under any circumstances? MS's "push" occurred while his car was still partially on the racing surface. I don't recall anyone being helped out of a deep gravel trap in the past.

I don't think any driver will ask, in the technical meeting with Martin Whitmarsh before Hungary GP, if its allowed to stay in the car with the engine running to be put back in the track, if they remember his last answer to a similar question.

Last year, after Michael had jumped the chicane at Hungaroring for three times to avoid being overtaken by de la Rosa, Pedro asked in the next meeting if this would be allowed, and Martin answer was "Not in the future".

So, it's better not asking anything to keep the door open.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Is it my limited English skills or does the wording "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue" leave a opening if the marshalls want to, they can come and help even if it's not recommended?

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In the preparation of specifications and regulations, the word shall (should is the past tense) is mandatory.

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Originally Posted by tinchote

Something that has always been obvious to me - written or not - is that you don't lift a car with the driver inside. It will be very interesting to see what happens some day if they are lifting the car with the driver inside, something goes wrong, and driver gets hurt :mark:

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I am sure that most, if not all, industrial regulations and safety regulations prohibit the lifting of a car with the driver in it and the engine running.

I cannot imagine that German industrial and safety regulations permit this. It is very interesting the the FIA has been silent on this issue, even if it is for clarification purposes. Maybe Charlie Whiting is still trying to find out from Dave Taylor whether the JCB was being used as a crane or a telehandler or forklift, and what safety regulations apply and don't apply..

One thing to bear in mind that Lewis obeyed all marshal instruction, I don't think he can communicate properly yelling to crane operator in order to take him back at the track.

Unless the clerk of the course has given instruction to the contrary, all such operation maybe undertaken by marshal at the scene.
The minimum requirement each marshal have to be able to communicate one another to to clerk of the course (HQ) using radio control or whatever to avoid any instruction mis-leaded.

I don't think they want with intention to break the rule, the means used must have been investigated by the FIA that it was capable and have feasibility to take such action. They might have done the closer approaching toward the incident.

Another question may arise would the HQ or FIA in general do more favor
for Hamilton? it's different case.
I doubt German series and FIA would be such philanthropist to the like of Hamilton.

In the event Hamilton scored point, I doubt also they will carry it away from him and give it to driver behind of him, because only a reason He obeyed all instruction, if you do mind to call it procedure. Would they swallow their own words (or mistake if you think it as a fault)?.

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Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

One thing to bear in mind that Lewis obeyed all marshal instruction, I don't think he can communicate properly yelling to crane operator in order to take him back at the track.

Unless the clerk of the course has given instruction to the contrary, all such operation maybe undertaken by marshal at the scene.
The minimum requirement each marshal have to be able to communicate one another to to clerk of the course (HQ) using radio control or whatever to avoid any instruction mis-leaded.

I don't think they want with intention to break the rule, the means used must have been investigated by the FIA that it was capable and have feasibility to take such action. They might have done the closer approaching toward the incident.

Another question may arise would the HQ or FIA in general do more favor
for Hamilton? it's different case.
I doubt German series and FIA would be such philanthropist to the like of Hamilton.

In the event Hamilton scored point, I doubt also they will carry it away from him and give it to driver behind of him, because only a reason He obeyed all instruction, if you do mind to call it procedure. Would they swallow their own words (or mistake if you think it as a fault)?.

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First of all, please read the rule I quoted again. It means the crane is not permitted to lift him back onto the track to continue the race.
There was one report that said that Hamilton refused to switch off his engine and signalled the crane driver to lift him back onto the track. Everything happened very fast and there was much confusion; I doubt the clerk of the course was brought into the disscussion but maybe you have more information there.
Regarding the philanthropic action of (sic) German series I guess you mean the German organised race, and they were lifting the McLaren Mercedes back onto the track.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

But don't the positions outside the points figure into a constructor's ranking at the end of the season which, in turn, determines their share of FIA money?

Is there anyone who remembers any other driver being "craned" back onto the track from a position as far off the racing surface as LH was during a race under any circumstances? MS's "push" occurred while his car was still partially on the racing surface. I don't recall anyone being helped out of a deep gravel trap in the past.

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nope, points make prizes so if your outside the points, it doesn't matter.

there was no intention to cheat and everyone acted in good faith but unwittingly, a rule was transgressed. as there was no impact on the championship, there would be no reason to take action in my opinion apart from clarifying the situation for the teams and Marshalls next race.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

nope, points make prizes so if your outside the points, it doesn't matter.

there was no intention to cheat and everyone acted in good faith but unwittingly, a rule was transgressed. as there was no impact on the championship, there would be no reason to take action in my opinion apart from clarifying the situation for the teams and Marshalls next race.

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"points make prizes" but , in the case of a tie , do they not count back on positions ?
A DNF wouldn't look as good as any given position finishing , if it came down to that , and it may .

ANY advantage within the rules is worth it in F1 .
A number of issues may be cleared up before the next race .

I get the feeling that no teams protested because Hamilton didn't, in the end, end up with any advantage. And if they don't protest then it won't lead to a crackdown, meaning that other drivers may use this to their advantage.

I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

"points make prizes" but , in the case of a tie , do they not count back on positions ?
A DNF wouldn't look as good as any given position finishing , if it came down to that , and it may .

ANY advantage within the rules is worth it in F1 .
A number of issues may be cleared up before the next race .

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Cleared up?
Not this season and not against the Golden Boy of F1. The commercial rights holder also holds Max's balls this year, it seems!

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I get the feeling that no teams protested because Hamilton didn't, in the end, end up with any advantage. And if they don't protest then it won't lead to a crackdown, meaning that other drivers may use this to their advantage.

I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.

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"Lewis Hamilton thus could continue his race as nothing has happened. At Toro Rosso, we were very astonished by this rescue. “This moment, we saw something of absolutely new in F1,” we can read on the site of Toro Rosso .....

"If Lewis Hamilton were helped with as much speed, it is because he was only pilot blocked in the gravel not switched off his engine. The FIA qualified this as a “legal incident”

Source :http://www.01men.com/edito/f1-live-f...-amie-la-grue/

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Originally Posted by ioan

Cleared up?
Not this season and not against the Golden Boy of F1. The commercial rights holder also holds Max's balls this year, it seems!

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Of course not against Lew Lew , but , as this opens up a few cans of worms , they may say now that it won't be allowed in future . It won't be retro-active .

If it's not cleared up , we may have controversy over who gets lifted first , or worse , we may have a fire , with cars hot , and stuck in gravel with no air space beneath .
The those balls might take some heat .

I reminiscing over the Birmingham Superprix - which used to hold F3000 races and BTCC in the late 1980s. In one year a guy named Russell Spence crashed and blocked the circuit. Spence remained in the car hoping the race would be stopped. However the marshals knew what he was up to and proceeded to lift Spence's car via a crane with Spence remaining seated!

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

nope, points make prizes so if your outside the points, it doesn't matter.

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I'm confused here. I was under the impression that the team which comes last does not get any television money. Now if two or three teams don't get any points, then their positions in all races sure do count.

However, having said this, only two teams have not scored points this year: Spyker and Torro Rosso. One of them would have missed out on funding for next year. BUT it is my understanding from commentary during one of the races that agreement has been reached between Super AGuri, Torro Rosso and Spyker that they would split the bottom two prize monies three ways and Spyker would drop their challenge to the chassis used by both Super Aguri and Torro Rosso in the courts.

So, as the matter stood at the beginning of the year, all positions outside the points did matter. Now, things are not so clear for this year.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.

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It was a dangerous procedure, that JCB being there in the first place in a dangerous location with cars coming off, and one hitting it. I would say that it would have contravened industrial and safetly regulations to lift a car while the driver was sitting in it with the engine running. Would you not agree?

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

First of all, please read the rule I quoted again. It means the crane is not permitted to lift him back onto the track to continue the race.

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Could you pointed out which phrase indicating that. I see that means as far as possible heavy equipment is avoided to take such action, but not like crane etc is anyhow prohibited to be brought into the action.

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There was one report that said that Hamilton refused to switch off his engine and signalled the crane driver to lift him back onto the track. Everything happened very fast and there was much confusion; I doubt the clerk of the course was brought into the disscussion but maybe you have more information there.

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Please read the whole chapter, I'm not quite diligent to quote a pdf, what I could remember, If they found driver to be unhurt, they should report it to race control to enable them make further decision. It wasn't solely marshal authorities to decide such action, Intervention is made by marshal at that scene unless the clerk of the course made instruction otherwise.

Seems we have to refer to more subsidiaries of chapter to produce more appropriate decision. :D

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I get the feeling that no teams protested because Hamilton didn't, in the end, end up with any advantage. And if they don't protest then it won't lead to a crackdown, meaning that other drivers may use this to their advantage.

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We should examine the rules again if it happens :)

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I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.

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The crane wouldn't lift the car up to some high of 5 meter or more, falling from 1-2 meters for account of gravitation wouldn't be as bad as hitting the wall at 270 kph.

However the non-trained official it isn't a mandatory doing that.

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Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.

As much as Lewis was pleased to be lifted out so quickly, what on earth was the big tractor doing in the gravel trap when the road was so dangerous and cars were still spinning off????? Why was the red not called sooner??? I just think the Marshalls were running about in a dangerous spot, and the big yellow tractor was a serious cause for concern. I really feel it should have been made to wait until the safety car had slowed everyone up.

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As best as I can recall, Schumacher hadn't stalled his car either, he was high sided in the curbing. They didn't push start him that I recall, they pushed a running car out of the way. Personally, I think they should adopt rules that put cars back on the track, especially when they are put off by someone elses reckless driving.

With the standard practice of handling stricken race cars under only a local yellow, there are frequently cranes running around in the gravel, but
i do agree, continuing to run under green was foolish. Any other series would have gone full course yellow almost immediately when ther rain started falling as hard as it did.

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Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

Could you pointed out which phrase indicating that. I see that means as far as possible heavy equipment is avoided to take such action, but not like crane etc is anyhow prohibited to be brought into the action.


Please read the whole chapter, I'm not quite diligent to quote a pdf, what I could remember, If they found driver to be unhurt, they should report it to race control to enable them make further decision. It wasn't solely marshal authorities to decide such action, Intervention is made by marshal at that scene unless the clerk of the course made instruction otherwise.

Seems we have to refer to more subsidiaries of chapter to produce more appropriate decision. :D

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It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.

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Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

We should examine the rules again if it happens :)


The crane wouldn't lift the car up to some high of 5 meter or more, falling from 1-2 meters for account of gravitation wouldn't be as bad as hitting the wall at 270 kph.

However the non-trained official it isn't a mandatory doing that.

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There are very clear regulations, industrial and safety, for the operating of cranes in most countries. Lifting a car off the ground with the driver still in the car and the engine running could be considered a dangerous condition.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.

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They found driver safe and sound, they might have reported it to the RC and decided to lift him up at back at the race. Poor Marshals if they are blamed for this. :(

This phrase applies appropriately to those damaged car and was obvious they will not and will not be able to continue the race.

[should] is closer to beckoning than prohibition, It doesn't state: Crane by all means is prohibited to be brought into action...

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There are very clear regulations, industrial and safety, for the operating of cranes in most countries. Lifting a car off the ground with the driver still in the car and the engine running could be considered a dangerous condition.

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This is standard and general regulation of usage of crane. They are used to lift cars in the accident like on the tollroad and put them in the garage of the police station or repair shop, while the driver/passenger have been evacuated for medical treatment. If they crane a new car there must be no driver or passenger inside, why would we be inside of the craned car?

Therefore, we have to examine if this happen again, non-skilled official is not recommended for executing the job :)

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.

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Why losing time Valve. No matter what's in FIA's rules they clearly decided to ignore them.
Cranes are used to allow cars back on the race, when the rules state it isn't legal!
Teams are found guilty of breaches of the sporting regulations but not punished at all, not even one penny!

The World Wrestling Federation could learn from the FIA how the work should be done.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Why losing time Valve. No matter what's in FIA's rules they clearly decided to ignore them.
Cranes are used to allow cars back on the race, when the rules state it isn't legal!
Teams are found guilty of breaches of the sporting regulations but not punished at all, not even one penny!

The World Wrestling Federation could learn from the FIA how the work should be done.

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ioan, I'm not going to be cynical about this. Things were happening very fast, the track was suddenly awash and cars were coming off at a surprising rate, and I can only guess the priority was to despatch the SC to try to keep things under control. Mayeb the Stewards had a panic situation, who knows?

It is my view, and I had suggested this previously, that a red flag situation should be implemented via the team intercoms and all cars can be stopped on track immediately, and then returned very slowly and safely to the pits.

However, it remains my view that Lewis Hamilton had broken the rules, and he should be erased from the results.

Our opinion should not come with a priori - over corrective to dramatize each fissure as weakness that the procedure was carried out wrongly.

I think that flagging and SC have been deployed according to procedure before the crane taken to action. However if we are strongly convinced that it was wrong, FIA is the proper party than Hamilton.

Ahm, let’s have a hot coffee he is fastest again :D

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.

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I did, and I'm still thinking it's all in post #115 by Andreag. ;)

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Originally Posted by andreag

I did, and I'm still thinking it's all in post #115 by Andreag. ;)

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You mean it's all in post #111 by ioan! ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

You mean it's all in post #111 by ioan! ;)

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Exactly; I said this in post #¬\€ in the thread "&%$)%·E!¿?'¡{}" (I think my keyboard has any problem) ;)

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Originally Posted by andreag

Exactly; I said this in post #¬\€ in the thread "&%$)%·E!¿?'¡{}" (I think my keyboard has any problem) ;)

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:laugh: ;)

Everybody's saying it, saying it, saying it................. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Crypt

It would of been my first instinct to get the F outta dodge knowing that you followed a car in there and you were almost clipped by another. I don't know if he was just ballsy, or Ron or his dad were screaming into the radio to stay put and keep the engine running.

To be honest, his day should of been done right there and he should of exited the car ASAP since that was a dangerous area to be in. I even shouted at the TV for him to get out, when I saw more cars come flying into that area. Then Liuzzi goes airborn and clips the crane. I couldn't believe it when they let Lewis off the hook and he just took off like it was no big deal. Bad juju, it will bite him back.

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Tell me, why is it safer to be hit by another car when you are out of your car than when you are in it?

Well, I suppose if another car came and hit your car, it would be a little safer if you had already got the hell outa there and took refuge behind hte safety barrier. Unless, of course, if a helicopter came outa the sky and missed the car and crashed behind the safety barrier.

It's all about perspectives, I guess!!

:D

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Teams "stayed silent" because there was no problem with what was done.

You're right that in future drivers may stay in the car with the engine running, but shouldn't they be doing that anyway if they have an otherwise healthy car? It shouldn't take a rookie to make them aware that they can, they should know that already shouldn't they?

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Looks like the new boy read the rule book better than some ;) ;)

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

....However, it remains my view that Lewis Hamilton had broken the rules, and he should be erased from the results.

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Anyway, He didn't score any single point!! Just racing in monkeys' side was enough for him :D

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

You're right that in future drivers may stay in the car with the engine running, but shouldn't they be doing that anyway if they have an otherwise healthy car?

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Not Ralf - car goes off (or makes a "funny" noise) - hop out - return to garage - collect paycheck - day's over!!

:)