I have seen foxes in zoos. If the zoos can keep foxes inside a fenced area, how come farmers can't keep foxes outside a fenced area?
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I have seen foxes in zoos. If the zoos can keep foxes inside a fenced area, how come farmers can't keep foxes outside a fenced area?
Im sorry Hazel B but your wrong i have witnessed a hunt running afox to ground putting the terriers in and getting it out cutting the brush and forepaw off and then throwing the fox to the pack the fox was still alive by the way if this is sport god help us !
Sorry but im new so excuse me if this is some sort of internal joke but you are taking the piss arent you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Can you imagine the expense, invironmental impact and unworkability of doing this to just 1 farm.
if its a joke, sorry, but it sounded for real.
It should be required by the law to every farm and the costs shifted to the price of food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
Eki, sorry, but that simply is not a practical solution.
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
OK, I guess you are the forum jester. theres always one. only took a day to figure it out :)
Can you even begin to understand the environmental aspect.
foxes are vermin. Pure and simple. They spread disease, cause crashes, needlessly kill poultry and lambs. Im glad they banned fox hunting so we can eliminate this pest with no reason to artificially maintain the population.
why to people get all fluffy about this menace. Do people want to go around cuddleing rats and mice? Foxes are just bigger versions
So do humans, and we are pests to the foxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat.tyres
And what do we need sheep for? I have tried sheep meat maybe once and didn't like it. And now that we have synthetic materials, wool is not necessary.
I changed my words because I don't actually believe any human thinks that animal rights and human rights should be equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
He hasn't got a gun but some of his friends have been shooting on his farm before. The farm land is actually my mums land and she wouldn't let fox hunters on because of the damage the horses do to land and she says she finds the type of people who go fox hunting are quite arrogant.Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
So have you never eaten lamb chops? :erm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
I question the environmental impact from producing synthetic fibres vs. sheep poop... :erm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
(...mmm... lamb chops... :facelick: :D )
I'm not Eki, I'm Erki, but most people probably won't notice :uhoh: , but to answer you question, no. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
[quote="Flat.tyres"] :laugh:
foxes are vermin. Pure and simple. They spread disease, cause crashes, needlessly kill poultry and lambs. Im glad they banned fox hunting so we can eliminate this pest with no reason to artificially maintain the population.
You hate foxes but you re glad that the government banned fox hunting ? I didnt know that foxes were reared, along with pheasants, for the sole purpose of hunting.
It is about fox hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by schmenke
What do you say to someone who says animal rights are as important as human rights? Is that stupid or not?
It's not a hard question, just a yes or no will do :up:
I look forward to hearing your thoughts, or just your yes/no - as you see fit :)
Stop bullying people raphael :laugh:
:laugh: I think your taking a shine to me ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
I wouldn't say asking a poster on this topic for their opinion, which is related to the topic, is bulllying :)
I'm just interested in what Schemke has to say, which is a compliment to him :)
Jon, as you seem to be interested, what do you think fella, what do you say to someone who says animal rights are as important as human rights? Is that stupid or not?
You are in a burning house and you can only help one being, one is a friend (human) and the other is a family pet. Which one would you save? Personally I think the answer is clear and means that I respect the interests of people more than the interests of animals, even though I love the family pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
lol. Very nice. But I asked what do you say to someone who says animal rights are as important as human rights? Is that stupid or not? Just say yes or no if you want, if you want to explain why your answer is yes or no...go for it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxis
So, if you did see this happen, why didn't I read about it being prosecuted on? You saw it and didn't let the RSPCA know? You are as guilty of cruelty as the people who did it in that case :(
Or did you see it on one of the LACS 1970's videos on TV? If you did, it was prosecuted on and the people responsible were sacked. As they should be.
If you have Hunted for as long as I have you'd know better than to judge all Hunting on one moron's actions shown by an anti-Hunt group :mark:
Raphael, I can't be bothered quoting you and answering. You're twisting words and implications far too much and taking life far too seriously.
By the way, I didn't stereotype townies when I said they get a country dog and then wonder why it isn't happy in town situations - Beans actually did just that. I note he's not been man enough to own up and explain that to you, so I have now. Five minutes of research on the subject and townies would know some types of country dog/life/thinking/etc just won't work in the suburbs. You should try reversing that raphael ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
I said before, if they say that, I think they are lying. My answer about the burning house explains that I think that view is strange (maybe stupid :\ )
I just find it incomprehensible that someone would save an animals life before saving a human life.
Eki, sorry I forgot to address your posts about lambs being kept in.
Perhaps on lowland farms they can be, for a few days, but in the majority of sheep farming keeping them indoors for more than two or three days is impossible. Some sheep never spend a day under cover in their life, so they'd freak for starters. Being terrified while heavily pregnant or with a lamb beside them isn't exactly offering them good care, is it? But that's the least of their problems when it comes to being indoors....
....sheep need fresh air, so the buildings would allow foxes in anyway as they'd be about 30-50% open (as most sheep housing is as the moment). UK sheep farmers tend to have a large area with a roof and two sides that are part latted with wood and 10cm(ish) gaps, then an open gated front and rear. That way it's dry but cool, airy but not draughty. You can't fox proof a building like that.
Stronger buildings would be far too costly to build and maintain.
Sheep also need to stay on a regular diet and bringing them in for ages changes the diet just when they are giving birth and producing milk. Then when they go out again and the diet changes, lambs show a check in growth. That means they have to be kept longer to make a suitable size for slaughter and we'd end up with more store lambs reaching adulthood before they're big enough to eat. Nasty fact, but true. If they don't grow well and evenly you can't call them quality meat.
They also develop better when outside running about. Barns wouldn't allow enough freedom of movement. They also harbour disease better than fields, so more chemicals would be used to keep the animals indoors healthy.
I'm no sheep farming expert, but the principles are the same for most grazing animals. You can't breed good horses indoors, nor anything but veal calves and blandly flavoured crossbred calves. In highland sheep farms they can't have any buildings at all for miles sometimes thanks to townies (yes, them again) moaning about how it looks on the pretty hillsides, so I guess many of their sheep just give birth behind some heather and take their chances.
But most often we have the choice and never face an either/or situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
For example, I hate lamping and would shoot at (above their heads, obviously) men who set their dogs on my cat. I wouldn't shoot at their dogs.
I'd tell a fur wearer what I think of them in no uncertain terms, and actually have done. It was fun :p :
If you want to decide if human or animal rights would win ask yourselves this question. Would you like to see captive Indian tigers released back into the wild? If you're Indian, would you like to see captive European wolves released back into Scotland? Most people answer yes straight away, without even considering that tigers eat humans :mark:
With animals there is always emotion. Misplaced half the time, but emotion as strong as it gets. It makes for stupid idealistic visions of a happier, friendly animal kingdom that cannot exist. I stupidly thought we could keep foxes off our land, but there they are using my arena as a toilet every night, giving my dogs fleas and taking all the cat's food. But they're so cute ;)
Oh god! lets not even go there! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
I don't think that there is a barn in the country big enough to accommodate 700 lambs and their mothers. My brother only has about 12 sheep that breed inside. These are usually the ones that have triplets and don't have enough milk to feed the lambs, so he gives the lambs some of his own :erm: ;) and there are blue faced Leicesters, who's lambs are too fragile for the Cumbrian climate.
I think in Finland the sheep are kept indoors the cold and snowy winter months (that's at least 3 months a year).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
Can't they use wire mesh like the bear den in this webcam?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
http://www.panoraama.com/live/maakot...HU_1_photo.jpg
That's tight enough to keep the foxes in or out, but still allows in fresh air.
Here are some pictures of a Finnish sheep house. Well, I must admit it doesn't look too cozy for the sheep, but at least it keeps them dry and their fodder from being buried in snow:
http://lampuri.fi/images/lampola038.jpg
http://lampuri.fi/images/lampola_edesta.jpg
http://lampuri.fi/images/lampola013.jpg
it wasnt shown by an anti hunt group i was there ! and dont pass the blame on to me for the actions of the hunting fraternityQuote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
Eki. Please refrain from posting hardcore Welsh pornography in this thread :mad:
This is a family forum (drone)
You wouldn't catch me reproducing this kind of smutty.........(whine, simper)
PS I don't fancy yours much squire.
Why not? You saw somebody torture a fox for fun and did nothing but tell us here and you think that's okay? I do not. You are covering up somebody's crime and allowing them to carry on acting like that. You are to blame as much as they are if it carries on, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by sxis
Eki, that last picture shows just how crammed in those animals are. We don't like keeping them that way here. We're not so cold as Finland, so they'd be too warm half the time anyway.
Plus, if you've ever tried getting planning permission for anything in the UK countryside, you'd know there's not a hope in hell of building shelter for sheep in 80% or more of locations where they're kept. Moving them about between fields is bad enough with our busy roads and tight restrictions on movement, just imagine having to move them ten miles off a hillside to a town edge building to give birth .... then have the locals complain about the noise they make (they're really loud when they have lambs) and **** crap all over the roads.
There was a mass panic in York about a month ago when two little male calves got out of the auction centre. Armed police had to close the main road in and out, the A64, twice and shoot them in the end. The calves (or rampant bulls as the papers and TV news called them :rolleyes: ) where running around in a field two strong fences away from the road, yet the lads at the auction where told to just leave them and the police would deal with it - two weeks later as it happened - so imagine the fuss if a few sheep made a break and got on the roads. They ended up having armed police on pallets hoisted up on fork trucks stalking the calves for two full days in a field only 14 acres big :rolleyes:
Great practice for the police, but considering John the stockman had been sneaking them food over the gate and from his forktruck hardly worth the fuss :laugh:
Yes, I agree they look crammed. But maybe if they sold half of them or built another shelter, so that the number of sheep per shelter would be smaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
Can't build a new shelter because of planning permission, can't sell sheep because farmers hardly make a profit with the sheep they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Finnish tomato farmers and such often have large greenhouses. Maybe if you replaced the glass/plastic windows with wire mesh they could be suitable for sheep:
http://www.tativihrea.fi/kuvat/kasvihuone.jpg
http://www.veritas.fi/fin/tuotteet_j...kasvihuone.jpg
For over 1000 of them?
That's rather disappointing you don't feel able to reply to my points, but not surprising as I don't think anyone can eventually win a discussion trying to prove that fox hunting is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
I'm not sure what 'twisting' I have done. You were going on about how fox hunting helps keep's the number of foxes killing lambs etc down as an arguement for why fox hunting shouldn't be banned. All I did was point out that earlier in this topic you were providing figures to prove that that was not a valid arguement. I didn't twist anything, I can copy and paste what you said if you want to, it's there under your name :rolleyes:
Maybe I was wrong to say it's nice having a discussion with someone who knows what they are talking about, as refusing to reply isn't much of a discussion.
I'm still curious as to what posts are true and which of yours are lies. Are your earlier post, where you say not many foxes are killed, and not many jobs were lost true? or is it when you say fox hunting is important for pest control etc.
I'm sure you can forgive me for pointing out the fact you've made an arguement for fox hunting, which earlier you said was invalid. I don't think it's twisting. You just have to be grown up and admit it :)
Good point, I work in the Planning Department in Swansea, which covers the Gower region in South Wales and getting planning permission for these barns Eki is proposing is never going to happen, unless you believe pigs can fly :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazell B
Eki, your not educated in this field it seems to be reasonable about it.
I personally found that post rather amusing :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by oily oaf
However, to be a bit of a party booper (as Ioan says lol), if this was against a race, you would probably be banned for that, or at least get people complaining.
I say that, because as soon as someone said Lewis's nickname should be 'The Flying Black' or something stupid like that, people were saying how wrong that was. But it's only negative if you see it as something negative. It's no different to 'The Flying Finn', unless you think being Finnish is something to be embarrassed about :p :
Anyway, just wanted to make a point :)
No, someone said his nickname should be "The Black Man", because Kimi's is "The Ice Man". Wrong or not, nicknaming Hamilton "The Black Man" would be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
lol true. Would The Flying Black be ridiculous too?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans
Why does a debate have to be won or lost. People have different opinions and no matter what want agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by raphael123
Hunting any animal is wrong and a fox is no execption. I dont care if it kills sheep, its there fault not keeping it safe
Thats your opinion, I don't agree
Your right, but generally in a 'debate', you try your best to show how your point of view is more 'right' than the other point of view. If you said you point, then the other person said theres, and you just said 'cool, let's agree to disagree' it wouldn't be much a debate :laugh: The whole point is to make your points, let the person counter those points and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
My main point against Hazell was the fact she said I was twisting things, after she used arguements to argue for fox hunting, which she had earlier said herself were invalid. In this instance, she couldn't really deny it, as it's there in black and white, hence why she said she couldn't be bothered I'm guessing.