but but....but HennersQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
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but but....but HennersQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Thanks. Your Idol will appreciate it :rolleyes: .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
Yep, Nico has his own set of rules,Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
He said and I quote- "I'm on the inside, I have the right to defend. I don't need to take the ideal line.
Someone aught to remind him that he is no longer defending when he isn't ahead.
His actions and attitude today also reinforce my belief that his Monaco escapades last year were also 100% deliberate.
Senna-esque minus the talent..
But hey... isn't it great that Karma prevailed and bit his derriere!
That makes sense? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
I also don't think it's acceptable to veer 12 feet off the racing line and push a guy off that is alongside. There's defence and there's being a bad sport. I think Nico fell into the latter today and he doesn't need to tarnish his career with such behaviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
LolQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk
I'll put it down to maybe a loss in translation. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
+1 this. Hear hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I think that DQ would have been appropriate in this instance, or at very least a five minute time penalty.
Well stated mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
BTW Lewis was actually ahead of Nico before the latter turned in ! The penalty was definately not severe enough!
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php...1467555919.png
Disgraceful driving from Rosberg .We now again see his true colours.When trying to defend he is dangerous using his car as a weapon .Very happy that this time he was damaged ,and maybe needs Toto to go through the footage and realize how his actions could have lost Mercedes ALL the points for Sundays race.How many times does he revert to dirty tricks ,as we can all remember the stunts he has tried to pull and again gets let off lightly .In my mind the stewards are afraid of the drivers or the "Big" teams and need to stand by their convictions with penalties they hand out 10 seconds on his race time was a farce
Finally a fantastic race that doesn't make people fall asleep. Oh how I was wrong expecting a boring race before Sunday. Keep more of those juicy F1 "scandals" coming! :-)
Hamilton's driving was a fine class act.
I spent some time rewinding and watching the incident again and again after Rosberg's interview. And l don't understand how he felt comfortable standing in front of the press and effectively the world making such a claim. But let us analyse it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
1. Hamilton was ahead approaching the corner on the racing line by half a car length. Nico was trying to counter attack on the inside and had the opportunity to take the apex of the corner and come out of it in front.
2. Hamilton was still ahead by half a car's length on the apex of the corner but on the outside which was still the racing line for this particular corner.
3. A driver genuinely fighting to take the lead would at this point attempt to take the shorter line cutting the apex to come out of the corner with a better position on the other side of the apex, giving that Hamilton would take the wider racing line through the corner.
4. But Rosberg who was all the while not on the racing line at any point during this maneuver and at a disadvantage of being half a car's length behind, decides he wants to dictate position on the apex of the corner. Kind of like Kimi on Bottas if you remember that one. That was always going to result in a mindless collision.
I think you have to be ahead at the corner and have command of the racing line going into the corner to have the right to cease the racing line at the apex of the corner. In Rosberg's case, he was not ahead going into the corner. He was not on the racing line approaching the corner. He had clearly lost the initiative even at the apex and this was clear from the nature of the crash that the front of his car collided with the mid section of Hamilton's car. The ugly thing about it all was that he did it with ample track space to make the corner, he did it with a counter attack line available to him to fight for position coming out of the corner without needing to crash into Hamilton. The choice to try to cease the racing line from a losing position was just desperate and pointless because it was going to cost more points than was necessary.
This is the big point for me. I was thinking about this afterwards and wondering what his reasoning was for what he did. He could have turned into the apex, retaken the lead and won the race without any damage to either car at this point. So why did he do it? Well the answer, I think, lies in what Toto said; he had brake by wire failure. He knew the only way he could keep the race victory was to eliminate the threat (Hamilton) and that is what he tried to do. Had he turned in, he wouldn't have had enough braking to keep Hamilton behind him coming into turn three. In the end it was heat of moment stuff but he deserved to lose out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
What really bothers me is how every time this happens Nico keeps getting little slaps on the wrist opposed to real tangible punishment. It reminds me of soccer and the way players continually pull and push each other in the box nowadays for corner and free kicks. Had UEFA stamped this out from the beginning and given a few lads red cards, it would have stopped straight away. Instead, it has crept into the game and spread worldwide and now everyone does it. It's much the same with Rosberg. He has gotten away with things like Monaco, Belgium, Spain and now he has gotten away with Austria. The most alarming thing for me is that it's two races out of the last 5 races, so clearly he's escalating now in the knowledge he can keep pushing the limits and he won't get punished. It's bad for sport, it does nothing for Rosberg's reputation and most of all, it's bad for F1. Time to stop it and the only way to do that is a race ban or disqualification.
This reminds me a lot of the Rossi/Marquez incident at Sepang last year. Rossi was on the inside, ran Marquez way out wide, eventually Marquez turned in anyway, and they touched sending Marquez off the track.
The outcome was similar too, with the stewards finding Rossi at fault, but the punishment was heavier: 3 penalty points which, added to the 1 penalty point he already had, sent Rossi to the back of the grid for the next race.
The Spain crash between Rosberg and Hamilton could have easily been fatal to one or both drivers. In the early Mosley era, that crash could have easily been fatal. The crash that killed Senna, seem innocuous as he crashed in to the tyre wall, but turned out to be fatal.
Recurrence of a crash between the same two drivers should have at least given an opportunity to the stewards to stamp it out with a harsh punishment. An ineffective 10 points punishment and 2 points on the license, sends a very weak message. But more importantly, shows an inconsistency when compared to the Kimi on Bottas incident last year.
Besides, there is a higher possibility for this recurring trend between Rosberg and Hamilton to result in an injury or a fatal situation if it is not nipped in the bud at this stage. The stewards have failed to recognize this point, l hope the Mercedes team at least recognize this possibility and act accordingly. That said, team orders is not the answer. These are the finest drivers in the world. They should behave and drive responsibly. If an external input is required to compel them to be responsible, then the team have the wrong people or person in their cars.
Rosberg clearly disagrees with the stewards opinion, hence it could be said that the stewards have failed to make their thoughts on this kind of behavior clearly made. A repeat of the scenario looks most likely to re-occur. I just hope that when it does, that nobody gets hurt or killed in the process.
This paragraph says it in a nutshell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
The key to all of this fuss is in what Rosberg said afterwards .
He said he had the right to dictate his line because he was on the inside .
I have been set against this point of view every time I've heard Lewis state it , so it would certainly be wrong to allow Nico to get away with it .
But , I think it's the key to why he wasn't flayed by the team . He stated it roughly the same way it had been said in the past , so I think they knew what he would be saying when they got to the debrief .
One thing Nico did get right , at least in the relating of the hard facts(and you're not going to like me saying it) , is that Lewis did turn into him . Nico turned away just afterwards in avoidance , perhaps feigned .
Now , don't get me wrong here(I know some will) , because I believe , as Lewis should be able to do as well , that the spirit of the rule that states that the driver must leave room for his competitors should give him the confidence to have been able to trust that his fellow racer enough to just turn in , at least when there is still a physical chance of getting around the corner on the track .
You have to give the other guy space if he's along side .
It's in the rules .
It's why he was penalized .
So , it's all about the point that Rosberg has been trying to make all along , I believe .
It's incredibly ironic , if I'm right , for Nico to take a penalty and lose points as he makes his point about this .
I think it's why Toto is tired of talking about these incidents . It's the same conversation every time .
Maybe this one will be different .
Glad Kimi finished on the podium. The doing was Lewis, he steered into Nico. Lewis get a grip.
Even if everyone bar Mia here agree on the crash being Nico's fault, I also think that both this crash and the ones in Barcelona and Spa wouldn't have happened had it not been Hamilton driving the other car. Quite a few drivers are overaggressive in their defending and put their cars in positions where the other driver has the choice to take evasive action (often needing to drive out of the track) or crash. Lewis does not seem to be a huge fan of yielding whenever other drivers' defending is excessive or even dirty - so that's why we've got crashes. However, if you rewatch this season's races, you'll find lots of scenarios where the defending driver doesn't leave one car's width, which leaves the pursuer angrily gesticulating at the car in front - but backing off.
This is not to take the blame away from Rosberg - his driving was dirty. I'm just saying that it's not as uncommon amongst the drivers as we'd like to believe.
I think Verstapenn in the other car would be equally challenging for Rosberg as we have witnessed a few times this year. It not Hamilton that is the problem. Rosberg finds competition difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by N4D13
Some of you guys on here just don't get it !
Rosberg supposedly was struggling with brakes as for the previous 6or 7 laps Hamilton had been pushing him hard trying to make him make a mistake ! Hamilton was past Rosberg by at least half a car into the right turn .Rosberg made NO attempt to turn into the corner,and went wide forcing Hamilton completely off the confines on the track.Hamilton then tries to rejoin the track and Rosberg tries to stop him doing that too What did Button say ? He said ,not only did Rosbeg drive him off the track ,but he tried to prevent him rejoining it again !!! Think some of you guys should be paying a visit to Specsavers !
Calm down .Quote:
Originally Posted by driveace
It'll all be ok .
Nico was wrong to force him off track . The stewards said so .
I'm afraid that on that other point you made , about Lewis coming back on , might not be quite right , or , in fact , any obligation for Nico .
The driver who runs off the track is responsible to regain the track surface safely , not the driver on track .
I'm not sure if it's true , but I've read that Lewis actually hit Nico's car as he re-entered the track .
This was pretty unclear in the replays that I've seen , but , if true , normally a penalized offence .
Nico had a clear view of Lewis re-entering the track and must have realised that by squeezing him he was forcing a contact. Lewis admitted he couldn't see Nico as he was completely in his blind spot. This is the point where racing drivers expect the other to leave room, much like the first contact between them. Jenson Button commented that Nico should have given room for Lewis to re-join the track and perhaps that is an agreement between drivers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Whatever way you paint this Bagwan it's not looking great for Nico. He acted like a moron in both instances. He's lucky he wasn't penalised for the second contact.
I'm not aware that Lewis said that Nico was in his blind spot in reference to the "second contact" , as you're calling it now .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
So , there was a second contact when Hamilton came back on ?
As far as I know , the onus is on the re-entering driver to make sure it is safe to do so , not at all on the driver on track .
It was suggested that back a couple of races when Nico was forced off in the first corner , that he did so dangerously coming back into the fray in 9th position .
If that was true , then doesn't hitting a guy when returning to the track surface qualify as just a little dangerous as well ?
If he did hit him on re-entry , how the hell does that come off any less friggin' brainless than his partner's dumbass gambit at the corner ?
Both moves could have caused disastrous results , and both moves are not allowed , though only one was sanctioned .
I kind of agree Bagwan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
However Button seemed to think differently so I kind of take what he says over anyone on here I reckon :p
I think the rules are very clear that it's the responsibility of the re-entering driver to re-enter safely.
That said, deliberately making it difficult for them to re-enter (especially when it was you that punted them off the track in the first place) is at best unsporting.
I could be wrong about this, but I watched a few times and couldn't see a second contact. It was definitely close, but it looked like Hamilton took evasive action when he realized Nico was hugging the white line to prevent him re-entering the track and then rejoined behind him without any contact.
The rules state it is the driver returning to the racetrack that should do so with care, but drivers already on track should not go out of their way to cause contact like Nico did. They should not make it unnecessarily difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
It was a double brainless move by Nico and notice only he was punished for the incident. In Canada also notice nobody swerved towards Nico to cause a crash. It's pretty clear cut, in fact there are not even any finer details from Austria. Nico drove like a tool at the end and ensured Hamilton had a superb victory. I suppose that is a punishment in itself lol.
Yeah I don't think they actually touched otherwise Hamilton would have lost his front wing end plate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
I think the sparks were from the wing clipping the high curb as Lewis stayed off track slightly longer. Very unsporting on Nico as you say.
This whole incident would have looked a lot different if Nico had turned into the first part of the corner when expected. At least then it would have looked like he genuinely did not make the corner. It just looked poor on his part and it's becoming a bit of a pattern with the lad.
Can we clear up one thing here ?
If you are on the inside , do you get to dictate your line , as Nico said ?
My understanding, whether it fits or not, has pretty much always been.. If you are alongside someone but ahead going into the corner it's your line.. as long as you leave space/racing room.
Yep, Lewis is no angel either and has had his incidents but this was on another level, there is no excuse.
Not if you are behind into the braking zone I would guess. Being behind you have responsibility to turn in and avoid contact. Just like if you are behind on theoutside you have an obligation to wait until the apex is clear to turn in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I would have no problem with Nico turning into the turn which because of the tighter angle would draw him back in front and then ease Hamilton out of road gently. (Not a swerve and push of the track). As it was he did not turn the wheel and aimed at Lewis with relatively clear intention.
Just my opinion
No. It has nothing to do with inside or outside, but who is in front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I would say if the driver on the inside is in front in the braking zone, then yes they get to pick their line within reason. For example going slightly wider but still leaving room for the guy on the outside to back out. We didn't see this on Sunday, we saw Nico go to the boundary of the track in a straight line and expect Lewis to leave the track. Myself and the stewards felt that was unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
In Canada we saw Nico on the outside of T1 but half a car length behind and with plenty of opportunity to back out. In Spa a couple of years ago we saw Nico again on the outside but half a car length behind.
The inside is optimal but you need to be ahead of the other driver when reaching the corner. Nico is adding to his history of losing out to Lewis in corners and maybe needs to review how he approaches these situations in future.
Didn't we see , when we saw them take each other off earlier this year , that you only need have a portion of your front wing beside the rear wheels of the car ahead to have the right to a car width of space beside him ?
Didn't Nico do that on a straight? Crowding another car off the track before they have reached a corner is also under the guidelines of leaving room I would have thought. If your opponent is alongside to some degree, then you can't force them off the track. If they are yet to decide which way to go, a driver has the option to make 'on 'defensive move. That one move does not include crashing into the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
The start of a race is also treated differently when 20+ cars go into turn one. It's accepted cars may touch and rarely are drivers handed a penalty for causing a collision when the start is so chaotic.
In reality , if you are there , occupying the space inside another driver in a corner , you are dictating the line , as he can't , or shouldn't turn into a car beside him .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
So , to a degree , Rosberg's statement is correct .
BUT , that degree is the point at which you do not allow space for another driver who is beside you .
That applies to the straights where we saw that any part of a front wing beside a rear wheel is enough .
It is a little different in the corners , where the sighting of the other driver comes into play .
That's why Lewis gets a bye for turning in when he did .
He had a right to the track space , and said he couldn't see Nico by that time .
I think we agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I doubt this will be the last time either of these two crowd somebody off the track though. Quite often drivers get away with it, but when contact is made I think it crosses the line of fair play.
You can block, defend, force another driver to back out, but forcing them off the track and crashing into each other will always attract the attention of the stewards.
Absolutely we agree , but it seems to me that we haven't many times before on this .Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I believe Nico is again trying to make a point .
I think he has one to make , but he's attempting to do it in the most stupid way .
And , you can expect he'll turn in , just as Lewis did here , the next time he's around the outside .
Your last statement is Nico's issue , I believe , as he doesn't believe that's the case at all .
I am hugely surprised after all the incidents between these two, Mercedes have not educated their drivers on appropriate attack and defence techniques. Surely this has been discussed to death in their boardroom?
I am also surprised fans on an f1 forum appear to have a better grasp of the rules and driving standards than a current driver. Nico either doesn't know, or he's playing dumb in front of the media in the hope the stewards will give him the benefit of the doubt.