Printable View
Yes, you are right. The winner of ERC, Esapekka Lappi, driving Skoda Fabia S2000, was faster than the Irishmen driving their WRCs. I checked it very thoroughly last year, because I was very surprised and could'n believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
it wasn't such a big surprise because it was same in 2012 with Hänninen and Mikkelsen.
you guys seem to give too much credit to the overweight village event competitors...
there is nothing surprising about a professional athlete to be faster than a rich old overweight guy who thinks he is fast no matter the equipment...
Trolling again, yet again you show your complete ignorance about the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
the topic is quite general...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nornbugger
you fit one of the descriptions and got offended ? i suggest you ignore people that you consider trolls.
I just compared the winning times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nornbugger
Didnt know about the 7 mins taken off the Nationals..
Suppose the extra power of the WRC cars didnt matter with the twisty lanes.
The extra power of course matters... a lot.
If you know how to use it! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
People need to remember that they are not Professional drivers. They are out for fun and if they win thats even better
Any one know who is testing in monagahn at the weekend and which days?
Power matters but not so much on these technical, twisty, bumpy roads... the chassis is a bigger factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
When WRC cars compete with a RRC/R5 on the Irish Tarmac Championship its only on the faster stages that they take time. They are also able to run higher gearing so have higher top speeds on any long flat-out sections.
Kajto testing for Ireland:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA86LyrWcAAsywY.jpg:large
Possible 'stealth' look coming for the Porsche 997 ??
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA8LotmVEAAl3VZ.jpg:large
Eddie, what You write makes little sense. I don't know where to start. if You think that CoI is twisty event go to Tour de Corse. If You think that engine matters less on twisty events You are again wrong. The engine matters the least where there are extremely fast flat out corners from start to finish such as in Finland. CoI has a lot of T-junctions where power actually matters a lot. Anyway the difference in power between WRC and R5 is so big that it always matters unless You have a snow stage without studs...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
So why are the WRC cars slower than the R5's when their drivers know their cars and roads far better than the ERC guys like Lappi last year ? Also, Breen & Abbring's new R5 was more powerful than the Skoda but the S2000 was faster due to its greatly more developed chassis..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Are you just saying that the Irish WRC drivers are that slow despite their greater power and active diffs etc ?
BTW, I have been following the Irish Tarmac championship for many years and have heard the discussion on why certain cars are faster others on these events many, many times. You dont have the monopoly on knowledge.
Regarding power vs chassis, I know from personal experience that a well set-up lower-powered car can easily be faster than a more powerful one with a poor chassis, out on the country lanes.
There is hundreds of small reasons why somebody is slower than somebody else. One of them for sure is that the professional works drivers are faster. There's no point searching for excuses. It's a fact and it's not a shame for anybody to admit it. Of course also several years old WRC in private hands is hardly as fast as works one would be and it's also true that new cars usually have better suspension. Than come other points such as the risk works drivers can take while privateers sometimes drive even without insurance of the car, tyres, testing...
Final word on chassis vs power... A great example I remember was when Ragnotti's little Renault 11 Turbo with 180bhp beat the mighty, powerful Sierra Cosworth's & BWM M3's on the Tour de Corse in 1987, due to its superior cornering & braking ability. Never forgotten that as I had an R11T ! :)
There was the same debat when WRC came to Ireland. People, fans of irish rallying, said that the best locals would fight with WRC regulars.
We've seen the result ... Irish drivers are good gentleman drivers, but only gentleman drivers.
Ragnotti was also kind of "works" driver. He was usually very fast on Corsica
Bernard Beguin won Corsica in 1987 with the Prodrive BMW M3, not the Renault 11 Turbo from Jean Ragnotti.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Raggnoti was very fast with the R11 Turbo in Corsica. His great skill and knowledge of the rally, allied to 900 kg and 185cv of the Renault 11, gives a good power/ weight ratio. The M3 and Sierra had over 300 kg than the R11
Kajto testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBqVjWw6ImY
He's not hanging about!Quote:
Originally Posted by RICARDO75
Hey folks,
I added the maps of the Circuit of Ireland Rally 2015 to my website.
Please NOTE that the route of the new stages are missing yet. But better than nothing, right?
Along with the stage maps I added the usual 3D tour and elevation charts stuff.
Also worth to mention is that I've added a few onboard videos from last year and added GPS tracking functionality to them. That means that the current position of the car is displayed in the map while you are watching the video.
http://www.rally-maps.com/img/Circui...-Map-Route.jpg
that's true, but isn't Ragnotti's car also fwd? it's unfair comparison if it is. I'm sure BMW & Sierra are RWD. but not sure for the other oneQuote:
Originally Posted by RICARDO75
It can not be true. Why would an M3 weigh 300 kg more than a R11 Turbo.
Yes it was FWD.
Kajto again: https://youtu.be/94c9JLhc6N0
This article on the R11T from 1987 is very enlightening, 'Braking and Entering' ... http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/renault11.htm
"This light little Renault can trip tarmac lights at remarkable, if not staggering, rates. Believe this: the first special stage of the third leg of this year's Tour de Corse was exactly the same as previous years. It ran for 28.77km from Notre Dame de la Serra to Point Cinque Arcate. Last year Bruno Saby won the Tour de Corse in his tarmac , sorry, Corsica , specification Evo2 Peugeot 205 T16; a car at the pinnacle of turbocharged Group 8 mechanical magnificence. That year he was also fastest on the Notre Dame de la Serra to Point Cinque Arcate test.
Bruno Saby needed 17 minutes and 38 seconds to thrust his 4wd E2 T16 over this 28.77km test. This year Jeannot Ragnotti hurled his 1419cc, carburettor-and-tiny-turbo engined fwd Renault saloon car fastest over those 28.77km. It took him 18 minutes and eight seconds , a mere 30 seconds more than Saby's mega-tech 4wd supercar. How can this ageing rally hatch be so rapid?"
"We have low power, but a very good power band, a very close-ratio gearbox, and therefore low top speed, so the car's acceleration is quite good, but even so, its standing 1/4-mile time is hardly faster than a standard Peugeot 205GTI 1.9: our Group A R11 Turbo does the standing 400m in 14.90 seconds, the new 1.9 GTI does it in 15.05s. So to be competitive we have to make the car as light as possible with as high a cornering speed as we can get."
"A component part of cornering is braking: the more efficient and stable a car's retardation, the quicker will be its elapsed time through a corner. And it's a complete understatement to say that there are many corners in Corsica. The multitude of twists, turns and gradients on the roads of this island make a car's braking performance critical to its Tour de Corse competitiveness."
Back to the CoI and the speeds of the ERC cars vs WRC Nationals... in 2014 the National WRC drivers beat the ERC drivers on the longest stage of the rally (SS12 / 17, which was 29.02Km) ...
If you have been following the Irish Tarmac Championship then you will know that the Circuit of '12 and '14 were both run on roads that hadn't been rallied for some time. Mirek has covered well the reasons why the difference in pace between ERC regluars and Irish Tar front runners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
NOT, your comment regarding your percieved idea of what an top Irish rally driver is like is so wide of the mark that its actually funny, it matters none to me personally, but seriously, you pretend to me Mr Clued in and intelligent and often I do not have 1st hand knowledge to know different, but now as so often when I do know the real picture I find that you are just what the Irish might call a 'gobshite' You are all shout and very little knowledge to back it up.
If You really want something impressive on twisty tarmac stages, should take for example FWD kit-cars from early 00's. Now that was something....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
a good example whether or not a private driver with wrcar is faster than an <official>driver with wrc2 car was beglium championsip in the past.prinsen against loix.of course prinsen is decent driver and not gentleman driver.
1. #102 flag Boyle Declan - Boyle Brian icon Subaru Impreza S12B WRC '07 (JT07 SRT) 1:58:47.5 109.0
1. #2 flag Lappi Esapekka - Ferm Janne icon Škoda Fabia S2000 (11R 0245) 2:06:15.5 109.6
230.62 total distance for both events,so i see wrcars are faster.the average speed for erc winner is 109.6 and for national winner 109.why?
Go back few pages. It's explained there. One stage was canceled for national field hence the difference. WRC drivers were not faster, they just run one stage less.
I repeat, what Ricardo75 claim can not be right. Or so, we must rewrite some laws of physics, or how important weight is in motorsport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
If I remember right would weight limit for an M3 be 960 kg.
Weight limit for a R11 was 880 kg. 1419 * 1.4 (turbo) = The limit for cars until 2000ccm.
Renault managed to build a car that was only 6 kg over the weight limit, while BMW made cars that were more than 240 kg too heavy compared to the M3's weight limit. No way.
In that case I have to change how skilled I believe Jean Ragnotti was as a driver (not so good) and how good Bernard Beguin was (best on asphalt ever).
Sorry, +125kg. The Group A8 cars from 90's had about 1200 kgQuote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Renault 11 Turbo - 900kg 185hp
BMW M3 E30 - 1025kg 290/ 300hp
I did not mean to be naughty Ricardo, but I think you are mixing together weight limits from different years.
If we take the limit for cars intill 2000ccm it was (if I remember right) 880kg until 1988. Then the 920kg. Since 1992, I believe it was 960kg, for later rise to 1000kg. We are now talking about group A. The current Gr R has other weight limits.
A8 cars under 90s I think had to weigh 1230kg.
BMW M3 had 2300cc engine and 1025kg on 1987Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Damn it! Is it just me or is he pushing like hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by RICARDO75
Quote:
Originally Posted by CivEngine
Finally he will run the french 208 Cup like Nil Solans ;)
Great black livery of the Porsche:
https://twitter.com/Tuthill_Porsche/...685120/photo/1