another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by ioan

And by what standard do you have the grounds to comment on Costas? Are you a better sports reporter? :rolleyes:

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Yes, but I can't brag. It's not hard to do.

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Originally Posted by Mark

That's your choice but I do think that we practice 'freedom' in a different way that's all.

Ultimately you can't have perfect freedom; no laws, no taxes. Government throughout human history has had to impose rules in order to make sure society functions properly.

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Absolutely and no question. Where you draw that line is the difference between some societies.

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Originally Posted by TyPat107

This is the saddest part, these deaths will turn into gun sales. The election did the same thing. I spoke with a A local gun dealer (town of 50,000 people) and the day before election day their store did $20,000 in gun sales, election day was $9000, and the day after was $50,000. It could never happen but people here honestly believe that their guns will be taken from them.

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Ask the people of NYC about guns being taken away.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

As I understand it , handguns are legal , but not in the school .

So here's a question : What makes a school different ?
I'd just like to fully understand the logic involved here .

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There is no logic there. It's a misguided sop to gun haters. Had there been armed teachers or administrators there, things might have gone somewhat differently. I say might because no one can assure any sequence of events in a "might of" world.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Given that the USA is hardly a lawless hell-hole, one can only place the blame for this on paranoia.

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The only mental issue is that you euro Types actually believe your government will protect you.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Mail Online

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Fousto, I just don't know what the answer is. I might take a different view in that I don't think the guy was a coward - I think he had very serious mental issues, something that I thought even before I saw his picture and read about his Aspergers syndrome. I do have to ask here :was his problem magnified by playing violent computer games? Because the guy was dressed in combat fatigues and he had three very powerful and efficient firearms.

Like everyone here, I do feel for the families. Sadly, the mass shooting problem in the USA will not be resolved - not in my lifetime. :(

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The media identified the wrong person who shared the same name as the real killer. I don't know if it was the victim of mistaken identity who had Aspergers, the real killer or both, however the victim of mistaken identity was a fan of GTA and COD. Possibly the real killer was influenced by violent video games, however I'm sure that violent video games allow for people to take their rage out on pixels rather than other people, and probably lead to lower levels of overall violence. Time after time, the media ignores the advice of psychologists and covers every detail of such attacks, almost glorifying the killer, and possibly influencing other massacres. Maybe drugs such as PCP could've been an influence on the killer, or extreme childhood bullying. Who knows?

On the same day, a person went nuts in China and slashed 22 children with a knife outside of school, what the **** is wrong with people?

Man slashes 22 children near China school - latimes.com

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Even if you did own a gun, and it made you feel safe, what if you are unable to get to it in time if you really needed it to defend yourself from attack? Owning a gun but getting shot while retrieving it defeats the object.

Also, if your house is broken into, say, and the gun is found by the burglar......

Much better to be without a gun.

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What if the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it? Ifs and buts do not make a world you can reasonably live in. I prefer SOME chance as opposed to NO chance. And that's just the difference in our takes on life.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Its been said before but if you live in a society where guns are common; if you are attacked or burgled, the chances of the individual carrying a gun is higher. If you live somewhere like the UK or somewhere else where gun ownership is restricted, then the chances of getting attacked with a fire arm is rather slim.

My house has a burglar alarm even though there hasn't been a burglary on my estate for over 5 years and that instance didn't involve an occupied premises. I live in a pretty safe area and I'm not generally a paranoid person where I think about remote possibilities or what ifs. Burglars don't tend to carry guns here, of course that doesn't mean there have never been armed robberies here either. Another common example would be If I got into an argument whilst driving (road rage) the chances are the other person won't pull a gun on me lol. I think we just have very different societies and its always going to have a clash of opinions because one country is full of citizens that feel they need guns for protection and the other really doesn't have the problem.

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A very clear understanding of the difference between many European countries and the US. Guns have been part of society here since the place was settled - four hundred some years now. They exist in huge quantities. There is NO practical way anyone can make them go away. Therefore, the prudent person will do what they deem to be the best choice for them and their family. Some choose one way and others a different way.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The only mental issue is that you euro Types actually believe your government will protect you.

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Says the man whose experience of Europe comes almost exclusively from Google searches and right-wing American news outlets.

I can tell you for sure that I don't feel the need to be protected to anything like the degree you clearly require.

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Originally Posted by Starter

A very clear understanding of the difference between many European countries and the US. Guns have been part of society here since the place was settled - four hundred some years now. They exist in huge quantities. There is NO practical way anyone can make them go away. Therefore, the prudent person will do what they deem to be the best choice for them and their family. Some choose one way and others a different way.

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Would you rather events such as those of yesterday kept on occurring if it's the price that has to be paid as part of retaining your guns?

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Originally Posted by Starter

What if the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it? Ifs and buts do not make a world you can reasonably live in. I prefer SOME chance as opposed to NO chance. And that's just the difference in our takes on life.

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One might say that another difference is that you're more frightened of the potential incident than we are.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Clearly, though, millions of people play them with no ill effect.

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And 47 some million Americans own guns with the hugely vast majority never shooting anyone.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Absolutely and no question. Where you draw that line is the difference between some societies.

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And it's in the drawing of that line that paranoia, a national fear/victim complex, or whatever, can begin to set in.

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Originally Posted by Starter

And 47 some million Americans own guns with the hugely vast majority never shooting anyone.

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I knew someone would probably make this comparison. I would suggest that the danger inherent in a gun is somewhat greater than that of a video game. I would also suggest that the possession of a video game demonstrates rather less negative personal qualities than does the possession of a gun.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Would you rather events such as those of yesterday kept on occurring if it's the price that has to be paid as part of retaining your guns?

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Please clarify. Do you mean legally retaining my guns? The answer is "yes" as compared to the alternative.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

One might say that another difference is that you're more frightened of the potential incident than we are.

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Do you buy life insurance, fire insurance or auto insurance? Your chances of needing either are small (else the insurance companies would go out of business). Does that mean you are frightened?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Says the man whose experience of Europe comes almost exclusively from Google searches and right-wing American news outlets.

I can tell you for sure that I don't feel the need to be protected to anything like the degree you clearly require.

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That is what the Poles Said in 1939. The French in 1940. Eastern Europe in 1945. Northern Ireland in 1972-75,76 & 93. The Israeli Olympic Team in 1972. Hungerford England in 1987. Turks in Cyrpus in 1974, Croatia in 1991. Bosnia in 1995. Scotland in 1996. Norway in 2011. .........Shall I go on?

How to stop a Massacre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4


What have we learned by that video.

That our Grandfathers are braver than the typical European.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Says the man whose experience of Europe comes almost exclusively from Google searches and right-wing American news outlets.

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Now this is laughable coming from the man from Germany who continues to enlighten us on his expertise on America and how we think and feel. You familiar with the phrase 'The pot calling the kettle black'?

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Originally Posted by Starter

Had there been armed teachers or administrators there, things might have gone somewhat differently. I say might because no one can assure any sequence of events in a "might of" world.

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Bollocks.
Had this person not had access to or been in a society which doesn't have guns as widespread, it probably wouldn't have happened at all. Incidentally there was an armed teacher... her son got hold of one and shot 20 children, her and five other people.

No-one can assure any sequence of events in a "might of" world but you can increase or decrease the likelihood of events in a "might of" world by changing the rules which govern it.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Bollocks.
Had this person not had access to or been in a society which doesn't have guns as widespread, .....

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Your assertion is stupid. That's like saying that if there were no gravity all those kids could have floated to safety. The society here IS armed and no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change that. Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

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Originally Posted by Starter

Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

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Yes it is a realit.

Which doesn't make it okay.

FACT: If there is less of anything, the chances of getting anything of it are less possible due to the fact that they are not that easily available.

If a kid lives in a house where there are various hand guns, rifles, or any other bullet shooting weapons that were purchased legally and are part of their household - and if that kid goes nuts for whatever reason (mental illness or drug caused or just plain pissed off with life), the probabilities of this kid getting those weapons from his home and going out to cause crazy, crazy, pain are magnified exponentially.

The guns were there for the taking and in this case a terrible drama unfolded.

Yes we deal with the reality, but it doesn't mean we have to accept it as something that can't be dealt with.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

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Thank you, we will.

I also can't help but notice that no one has commented on the fact that a gun did not kill those children. A severly wacked person, using a gun as his tool, did. No one seems to want to discuss the role which mental illness plays in incidents like these. So far, reports are that many people knew this guy was disturbed. I'd like to know more about why he was free to do what he did; how well were his mental issues known and to whom; what measures were in place to address them; etc. Find some solutions there and the gun ownership issue is moot.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

FACT: If there is less of anything, the chances of getting anything of it are less possible due to the fact that they are not that easily available.

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Fact: Alcohol was banned here early in the century. Result: Plenty of alcohol available, at a slightly higher price and with a new class of criminals engaged in a violent trade.
Fact: Drugs are banned here. Result: Plenty of drugs available, now with a very violent class of criminal getting the huge profits and addicts getting virtually no treatment.
Fact: Guns banned in New York city and Washington DC. Result: Gun violence rampant in those cities and the law abiding general populace helpless.
What, exactly, makes you believe that if you ban guns (assuming you even could) they would not be easily available?

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If a kid lives in a house where there are various hand guns, rifles, or any other bullet shooting weapons that were purchased legally and are part of their household - and if that kid goes nuts for whatever reason (mental illness or drug caused or just plain pissed off with life), the probabilities of this kid getting those weapons from his home and going out to cause crazy, crazy, pain are magnified exponentially.

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It is rare indeed that someone just "goes nuts". The signs are usually there for a long time and people who interact with them know that there is a problem. But, no one deals with it.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

What have we learned by that video.

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That your country allows idiots to have guns in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Your assertion is stupid. That's like saying that if there were no gravity all those kids could have floated to safety. The society here IS armed and no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change that. Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

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If no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change the fact that society is armed and you've either weakened government to the point where it can not or is not allowed to do anything about it, then this will happen again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Rollo

America will take 3 weeks to flagellate itself, make crying noises, boo hoo hoo and all that, forget about it and then wait another six months when another massacre will occur (in which time another 5750 people will have died because of guns) and we can all go around the merry go round again.

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Originally Posted by Starter

What, exactly, makes you believe that if you ban guns (assuming you even could) they would not be easily available?

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Never said that Starter, I said "less".
Law enforcement needs guns, licensed hunter's and target practice practitioners need their legally and responsibly obtained weapons.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

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yes I agree that the government needs to be kept at bay, that is why we have guns and are not giving them up. The world has become a cesspool sprinkled with a few gorgeous Whores. Just will have to accept is as it is. We will continue to shoot one another and you will continue to bomb one another and the end result will be the same. Horrible death.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Thank you, we will.

I also can't help but notice that no one has commented on the fact that a gun did not kill those children. A severly wacked person, using a gun as his tool, did. No one seems to want to discuss the role which mental illness plays in incidents like these. So far, reports are that many people knew this guy was disturbed. I'd like to know more about why he was free to do what he did; how well were his mental issues known and to whom; what measures were in place to address them; etc. Find some solutions there and the gun ownership issue is moot.

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Starter: Is is coming out that this kid was very intelligent. He could have got guns from many places or even more scary - built bombs. The fact that he shot his own Mother in the face sends a chilling message that someone did not deal with the symptoms. Also he spent hour and hours with violent video games. They say his Mother was overbearing. More about the personalities is coming.

In which case there are 2 issues at hand. 1, lack of effective mental health treatment. 2. Putting guns in the hands of the mentally ill. Blaming it all on mental health is a convenient side bar to get attention off the fact that people still keep killing people with guns.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

Never said that Starter, I said "less".
Law enforcement needs guns, licensed hunter's and target practice practitioners need their legally and responsibly obtained weapons.

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And therein lies the crux of the entire matter. In HK, with a population of well over 13 million in that tiny place, nobody apart from law enforcement officials are permitted to Bear Arms. Not surprisingly, there are no mass murders in Hong Kong. And I would be specious to argue that children are more valued in Hong Kong than the United States of America. Maybe the entire population of The United States of America need an introspective consideration into what lives their people hold sacred, and which lives they can extinguish according to their precious second amendment.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Also he spent hour and hours with violent video games. .

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Oh! Shyte!! :( Just what I dreaded.

If your government wanted to they could wipe you off the face of the planet in seconds whether you have a ton of handguns and rifles or not. You have the one of if not the biggest armies in the world, armed police etc. They would likely do the bidding of their employers. A few gun toting citizens who think they are a militia keeping the evil government at bay are simply paranoid delusionals. I've lived all across the UK, in Sweden, and now Australia, I've never even seen a gun in public except a couple of police in london and at airports. Never seen a knife pulled on anyone, never felt that I was in danger of Islamic extremists blowing me up. Sure there are a bunch of wackos out there who would hurt people, but the paranoia is simply a product of instant worldwide news coverage, not actual risk of crime. I do believe the hell hole New York, haven of violent crime, actually recorded 24 hrs of zero violent crime a couple of weeks ago, for the 1st time in living memory. You guys absolutely do not need guns. You have precisely zero more freedom than most of the rest of the developed world, just a perceived freedom based on some outdated text with no practical application in the modern world.

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Its good to see the guns don't kill people, people kill people line again..

Such a tragedy, condolences to all involved.

The Americans in the argument on this forum have the outlook of putting an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff to try and save the man who fell. The rest of the world in this argument in this forum have the view of putting a fence up at the top of the cliff to stop the man from falling. If that makes sense to you people. I Wonder what decision has the best outcome.. Hmm

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

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You'd be quite surprised at the security measures put in place at my kids school. Not to keep the kids in, but to keep those that want to do 'things' to kids out. CCTV, maglocks on doors, high fencing, door entry systems etc.

This is not a unique or a pie in the sky idea.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, but you can't outlaw stupidity.

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No - and some are genuinely just thick. But a lot of it is a lack of education.

Dare I say that some of this is a parenting issue, some is a funding/access to education issue.

Surely then, a level of checks for suitability for gun ownership, should be the family as a whole, including education, intelligence etc???

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Originally Posted by Roamy

children start very violent games at such a young age.

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Irresponsibly brought up children maybe. Trouble is, any twit can get knocked up and start a family. I am not saying this should be stopped because you cannot dictate on freedom.

But how do you ensure a basic common sense level of parenting and education.

I don't know that that would be possible unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Do you buy life insurance, fire insurance or auto insurance? Your chances of needing either are small (else the insurance companies would go out of business). Does that mean you are frightened?

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Most of these insurance you refer to, are legally required in order to;

Own a car,
Obtain a mortgage,
Continue to have a mortgage on a house.