Pirelli defend tyres after Schumacher blast

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

What KERS fiasco?

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In 2009 it proved to be less efficient than initially thought. All four teams, who had opted to develop and install KERS for 2009 (McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Renault) were struggling in midfield in the beginning of the season. Needless to say, those teams happened to lock out the whole Top4 in WCC in previous year! McLaren and Ferrari improved later in the season, BMW improved only after they had ditched KERS. So although much of McLaren's troubles were put down on aerodynamics, it was easy to conclude that opting for KERS significantly hindered the progress of factory teams that year.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Schuey just needs to try a bit harder and live up to his reputation as being able to adapt to any car. He had a legendary status after he retired that was repeated alot here regarding his adaptation abilities. Four 'idoitic' (hilarious term) tyres should be easy to overcome surely?

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The Schue is on the other foot now though. When the German Baron first burst onto the scenes he was amazing and unpredictable. People called him dangerous but those people preferred the Prost type of racing to the creativity of Senna.

Then he became bloated on preferential machinery and 'creative' governance from the FIA. An aura was built around him that he may have deserved in his former years but flattered him in his latter life before FR (first retirement).

Now we see a driver who cannot hold a candle to a young gun who, lets be fair, is not top flight. Nico is a good peddler but no Hammy or Alonso.

In the ole days, ioan would have waxed lyrical about how Schumacher could have taken a Minardi and won races with it. Pfffff!!! Yet again, a hard taste of reality for Mr Armchair Expert. We are seeing the end of a great but terrible Champion who is wasting a seat in F1 the same as Massa is.

Last orders at the Ferrari Old Guard me thinks.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Indeed :up: I think it is probably safe to exclude Caterham, Marussia & HRT from the list of possible winners but other than that who knows :crazy:

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Haha :D

I think that is a safe bet! Although it would make my day if one of those teams finished a race tenth and scored one driver point, just so they can boast to the other two teams about the one point they scored :laugh:

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Originally Posted by henners88

Now the engines are more reliable and lucky wins are now decided through the use of tyres rather than a Jordan or a Stewart inheriting the lead due to a McLaren or Ferrari blowing its top or crashing into each other. Nobody used to moan about that.

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Because its one of the cliches of motorsport: to finish first, first you must finish.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Schuey just needs to try a bit harder and live up to his reputation as being able to adapt to any car. He had a legendary status after he retired that was repeated alot here regarding his adaptation abilities. Four 'idoitic' (hilarious term) tyres should be easy to overcome surely?

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He's past his best. Not the first nor the last to be humbled. Some people thought Barrichello's time came too soon yet he was beaten by a pay driver.

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Originally Posted by jens

In 2009 it proved to be less efficient than initially thought. All four teams, who had opted to develop and install KERS for 2009 (McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Renault) were struggling in midfield in the beginning of the season. Needless to say, those teams happened to lock out the whole Top4 in WCC in previous year! McLaren and Ferrari improved later in the season, BMW improved only after they had ditched KERS. So although much of McLaren's troubles were put down on aerodynamics, it was easy to conclude that opting for KERS significantly hindered the progress of factory teams that year.

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Depend' on one's view. Some teams thought it was a hindrance to car development whereas McLaren and Ferrari made an effort to optimise KERS with the former and with the latter optimising the package via reducing weight.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Williams [...] have never made top cars. Suddenly gaining a second overnight going into the Spanish GP at Catalunya - the greatest test on a car's aero. I find it too good to be true.

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Seriously? I must have imagined all those championships and race wins. :s

As others have said, Williams have shown genuine pace this season, the win in Spain was earned on merit.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

In the ole days, ioan would have waxed lyrical about how Schumacher could have taken a Minardi and won races with it. Pfffff!!!

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Nowadays he'd moan that Minardi only won because of a tyre lottery!

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Originally Posted by tfp

Haha :D

I think that is a safe bet! Although it would make my day if one of those teams finished a race tenth and scored one driver point, just so they can boast to the other two teams about the one point they scored :laugh:

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Even if they don't score a point, the race for 10th place in the constructors could be won in Monaco, given the likelihood of a high number of retirements. If Caterham or HRT can beat Glock's 14th place from Australia they'll take the 10th place in the WCC, and it could easily stand to the end of the season. There is serious money at stake there, more than just boasting rights that's for sure :) so it's an important weekend for the bottom 3 teams.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Seriously? I must have imagined all those championships and race wins. :s

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When was the last time have they won a championship? Eight years winless streak with. Yep, Williams are winners....

Sam Michaels saw Williams last win and the cars went downhill under his reign as Technical Director.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

As others have said, Williams have shown genuine pace this season, the win in Spain was earned on merit.

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Define genuine pace. Alonso - arguably F1's most complete driver can't get his head round on that concept. He doesn't know if Ferrari made genuine gains or tyre lottery.

But still you say that you enjoyed the races, wedge, and this is the important thing. You said that sport is boring, but this year proves that it must not be so. Maybe it is not "pure', but I don't believe in "pureness" and even if I believed "fun and exciting" is better than "pure and boring" IMO.

I doubt I'm saying anything new here but to me the main reason for not having a problem with the tyres is the fact that all teams have to deal with them. So from the competition side of things no harm done.
The race are unpredictable but overall it looks like business as usual to me. It's Bieber and Alonso on top of the standings not Maldonado and Perez. And Schumi is the same average driver he always was :laugh: .

Did it ever occur to anyone that the deletion of the blown diffusers has a major impact on how the teams cope with the tires? I think that pre-season testing allowed the teams to know where the threshold for the tires was at, but placing them on the car that is inherently more tail-happy tends to be an issue. Not really a big deal in my eyes. I'm happy with F1 at the present moment:

1) Six world champions on the grid.
2) Enthralling racing.
3) Good mix of winners.
4) The stewards aren't getting in the way.

Chill out homies!

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

I tend to be right most of the time.

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http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/gl...g_her_eyes.gif

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Originally Posted by F1boat

But still you say that you enjoyed the races, wedge, and this is the important thing. You said that sport is boring, but this year proves that it must not be so. Maybe it is not "pure', but I don't believe in "pureness" and even if I believed "fun and exciting" is better than "pure and boring" IMO.

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Purity of Formula One is best drivers and teams building the best cars possible and hopefully legal.

Quality in the sport derives from a small pool of elite teams and/or individuals and hence it can become boring:

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Take such artificial restraints away and an inevitable process of concentration begins. Football is the game of the city. The big city giants can afford to pay more, so they attract the best players and a reduced number of clubs cut away from the pack. Make the area of operation worldwide and the number is reduced still further. There is space for a handful of giants to go global, first winning over fans in Asia and North America, and then working to find ways to turn this allegiance into money.

The super-size teams are thus able to assemble squads of dazzling quality, making it hard for the mid-size clubs to compete. The price of quality is a large dose of predictability, the big dilemma of today's top domestic leagues.

BBC - Tim Vickery: A top league with both quality and unpredictability

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Unpredictability creates excitement but not necessarily sign of quality - the inconsistent performances, questioning Williams' genuine pace being a case in point.

Yes, I did find the races exciting - to an extent. It's like being greedy with rich food and Spain was far too good to be true - Barcelona being the ultimate test of a car's aerodynamics has tended to create snooze-fests.

Last year struck the right balance.

I'd love an underdog to win. It generally came from a special talent 'outdriving' a car - perhaps the ultimate sign of quality.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Did it ever occur to anyone that the deletion of the blown diffusers has a major impact on how the teams cope with the tires?

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Pirelli overcompensated via new tyre construction and softer rears.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Pirelli overcompensated via new tyre construction and softer rears.

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So? Pirelli did as they were asked to do by the FIA. Time for the teams to buck up and deal with it!

I feel like we're going around in circles here people. I'm bowing out of this thread. Peace.

If purity is dull, screw purity :D Although the best are still leading and one of them will win in the end. It will just be a little harder this time.

Proof that teams are utterly and completely retarded
Pirelli in new push for qualifying tyres to solve Q3 issues - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

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And it was unanimous when we last spoke to them that they felt the tactical intrigue created by not running and having fresh tyres was something that was good for the sport. Where the real solution in that lies I don't know

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Really, how have these people gotten to such high level positions when they are such utter and complete idiots? Just amazing.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Proof that teams are utterly and completely retarded
Pirelli in new push for qualifying tyres to solve Q3 issues - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com



Really, how have these people gotten to such high level positions when they are such utter and complete idiots? Just amazing.

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Nice to see that for once...you're in great mood :p : :s

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Originally Posted by F1boat

If purity is dull, screw purity :D

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That's what NASCAR and Touring Cars are there for.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

So? Pirelli did as they were asked to do by the FIA. Time for the teams to buck up and deal with it!

I feel like we're going around in circles here people. I'm bowing out of this thread. Peace.

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Pirelli were asked to make aggressive compounds which they did as last year testifies but were Pirelli told to alter to the tyres for this year?

Interesting article in this week's Autosport. Mark Hughes argues whether its "plain dumb luck".

For the best part of 10 years I've been reading threads on here about how dull the sport is/was when Schumacher or Vettel dominated, and now finally there's a genuine chance for midfield teams to do well and people are complaining.

Tyre management is difficult. Here's the dirty secret: F1 is meant to be difficult. Those who get it right reap the rewards. It's not a lottery, it's hard work, talented designers and skilful driving.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Did it ever occur to anyone that the deletion of the blown diffusers has a major impact on how the teams cope with the tires?

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I think that's a good point.

This is the first year for a while that there has been no clever/loophole-exploiting device that has given a big advantage to the teams that have been able to make the most of it. Mercedes have their double-DRS but its advantage seems to be minor and only in qualifying. Other than that, it's a pretty level playing field in terms of aero and chassis. I think that's a major reason why the field is so closely matched this year, and getting your car to work well at a particular track can move you up a lot of places.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

For the best part of 10 years I've been reading threads on here about how dull the sport is/was when Schumacher or Vettel dominated, and now finally there's a genuine chance for midfield teams to do well and people are complaining.

Tyre management is difficult.Here's the dirty secret: F1 is meant to be difficult. Those who get it right reap the rewards. It's not a lottery, it's hard work, talented designers and skilful driving.

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If F1 is meant to be difficult then F1 shouldn't be a charity to midfield teams. Such levels of parity is the preserve of NASCAR and Touring Cars.

Is the current parity genuine? Too hard to say.

I wonder if the old boy will still be whinging about the tyres after setting the fastest time in qualifying?

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Originally Posted by Dave B

I wonder if the old boy will still be whinging about the tyres after setting the fastest time in qualifying?

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Tyre management for qualy ie. "switching on the tyres" is a completely different skill to managing tyres over a stint.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

I wonder if the old boy will still be whinging about the tyres after setting the fastest time in qualifying?

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Now, if you were smart, you would have figured out why he whined, moaned and groaned...........Ms says, Blast them, it is the supid tires......... and then old donKey Jote went out and got da Shoe a special set of supper softies.... ;) ...


the tactic seemed to work just fine, if you ask me. :D

Too bad the same approach did not work at the last race, when he called that idiot an idiot. Maybe he should have said, gee, I am so sorry, it was just a racing incident, I could not imagine why he was going so slow.....so i thought he was broke down and pulling over for me to go around, then he moved back on me before i could do anything--opps-------
:eek:

and given how hard it is to pass at Monaco, and how hard he can make it to be passed, Mr. MS might have easily been the winner tommorrow. :(

Button - "a little bit worried":

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But, typical of Formula One when it finally achieves what it set out to achieve, there is a growing feeling now that "unpredictable" may not be such a wonderful thing after all.


Michael Schumacher’s complaints about Pirelli’s hyper-sensitive tyres a couple of weeks ago were shot down as the grumblings of a sore loser, but it is clear that other drivers and teams have their concerns too.


McLaren’s Jenson Button conceded this week he was “a little bit” worried that races were becoming lotteries as teams struggled to get their tyres working. World champion Sebastian Vettel said he was confused by the radical shifts in form.


“It does worry me a little bit,” Button said, “but then again the car is quick. Lewis [Hamilton] put it on pole in Spain by a massive amount and that proves how strong our car is. It is very strange.

“Look at [Williams’ Pastor] Maldonado, he qualified 17th in Bahrain and qualified second in the next race. He was consistently qualifying down the order and then suddenly he was second.

“The fans love the fact it is exciting but I think it will get to a point where they will wonder who they are supporting and why someone is winning and someone is losing.

“Why is everyone a loser and everyone a winner? Hopefully it will get to a point where we all understand what is going on.”

Monaco Grand Prix 2012: Jenson Button says teams must get to grips with tyres - Telegraph

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I hope that you are happy now - hard tyres, no lead changes, "pure" racing.

It's Monaco. At best its a train of cars and frustrating overtake attempts. It's the nature of Monaco. I have no problems.

Hard tyres? Not sure if you paid attention but drivers were having to conserve tyres to make the 1 stopper work.

If you can make 78 laps with 1 stop, the tire is good!

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Originally Posted by F1boat

If you can make 78 laps with 1 stop, the tire is good!

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You could fit those tyres onto my Hyundai Matrix and I'd do 78 laps without stopping. That doesn't mean the tyres are any good, though...

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Originally Posted by F1boat

If you can make 78 laps with 1 stop, the tire is good!

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Tell that to Kimi who was holding up a train of cars, tell that to McLaren who instructed to their drivers - on different strategies - to conserve their tyres.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Tell that to Kimi who was holding up a train of cars, tell that to McLaren who instructed to their drivers - on different strategies - to conserve their tyres.

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Or compare against last year where the majority of the field did 3 stops. This year the majority chose one stop so it was their own decisions which forced them to conserve tyres.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Tell that to Kimi who was holding up a train of cars, tell that to McLaren who instructed to their drivers - on different strategies - to conserve their tyres.

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Surely you can expect difficulties on one stop trilogy? And BTW wedge, I don't know why you think that only touring cars should be exciting...

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Originally Posted by wedge

2002 - as I said earlier, arguably F1's lowest ebb in recent history.

2004 - yes Ferrari dominated but the battle for best of the rest was immensely enjoyable and the year Bunsen came to the fore.

2010 - good races and bad races, much like any other season. Final showdown was an anti-climax.

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I enjoy every season.

I do think 2002 gets a bad press. Yes Ferrari were dominant, but there were a few decent races that season and alot of action behind the Ferrari's

Australian GP was fun after the first corner smash, the Webber Minardi points was great.

Malaysia GP - I remember the Williams dominated and gave us hope of a close season, and Schumi came from the back to 3rd. Also Bernoldi in Arrows passing Schumi.

Spain.- I remember some good midfield action later in this race, and Frentzen getting a point for Arrows.

Austria - I obviously had the drama of the Barrichello/Schumi switch. And the worring Heidfeld/Sato crash, but Villeneuve was rampant in that race and as always in Austria the midfield action was close.

British GP - Had rain and some great earlier battles and Barrichello from last to 2nd. More great midfield action.

French GP - Raikkonen drove brilliantly for what should have been his first win, but for a late spin on oil.

Italian GP - Irvine in the Jag getting a podium, and Trulli coming from last to 4th.

Japanese GP- Sato getting that 5th place for Jordan.


Just to point out a few of my highlights from 2002.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Button - "a little bit worried":

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So he should be after his last few races. The rest of the winners appear to be doing fine ! ;) :p

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Originally Posted by F1boat

If purity is dull, screw purity :D Although the best are still leading and one of them will win in the end. It will just be a little harder this time.

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agreed- have been watching motor sport for 30 plus years I watch alot of motor racing because I like it- but I want it to be entertaining as well. the top drivers in the championship are what I would call the best drivers in F1 in the strongest teams- we just don't know who will win it- that's a great news story as far as I'm concerned. Pirelli were asked by the F1 teams and the series to come up with tyres that make them work harder- they have done precisely that. I reckon Alonso will be champion this year- that's right and proper since he is the best driver out there

if you want to see what rock hard tyres and pesky aero does for the racing - just watch the dvd's from 2002-2008. or this years yawnfest that is NASCAR in 2012- when F1 has more overtaking than an oval series it's doing something right

NASCAR and Indy Car are getting very dull in recent years and I stopped watching them. Nothing, however, comes close to the DTM - great looking cars and no action at all. Formula One today is however very entertaining, even more than some touring car series...

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Originally Posted by aki13

I enjoy every season.

I do think 2002 gets a bad press. Yes Ferrari were dominant, but there were a few decent races that season and alot of action behind the Ferrari's

Australian GP was fun after the first corner smash, the Webber Minardi points was great.

Malaysia GP - I remember the Williams dominated and gave us hope of a close season, and Schumi came from the back to 3rd. Also Bernoldi in Arrows passing Schumi.

Spain.- I remember some good midfield action later in this race, and Frentzen getting a point for Arrows.

Austria - I obviously had the drama of the Barrichello/Schumi switch. And the worring Heidfeld/Sato crash, but Villeneuve was rampant in that race and as always in Austria the midfield action was close.

British GP - Had rain and some great earlier battles and Barrichello from last to 2nd. More great midfield action.

French GP - Raikkonen drove brilliantly for what should have been his first win, but for a late spin on oil.

Italian GP - Irvine in the Jag getting a podium, and Trulli coming from last to 4th.

Japanese GP- Sato getting that 5th place for Jordan.


Just to point out a few of my highlights from 2002.

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A persuasive argument. Austria obviously the lowest point but I was more concerned about the direction of the sport and the technical sophistication was far too OTT.

Niki Lauda test drove a Jaguar and said it was so easy that his grandmother/monkey could drive it! The era had TC, auto upshifts with manual override for downshifts, pit to car telemetry whereby car adjustments could be made from the pits; respect for driver skill was being lost.

Ferrari/Schumi domination didn't help nor a faltering economy which seemingly affected a non-sell out '02 Italian GP.

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Originally Posted by djparky

if you want to see what rock hard tyres and pesky aero does for the racing - just watch the dvd's from 2002-2008.

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I have 2003-08 and thoroughly enjoyed them.

2009-10 had rock hard Bridgestone tyres. What gives?

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Surely you can expect difficulties on one stop trilogy?

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Safety car helped with managing the super soft on the first stint, like SC helped Seb last year.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

And BTW wedge, I don't know why you think that only touring cars should be exciting...

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As I said earlier purity of F1 and pretty much sport itself.

Touring Cars is more about creating close competition by equalizing the dynamics of the cars and drivers with things like ballast, reverse grids and spec formulas and therefore more of a show.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Niki Lauda test drove a Jaguar and said it was so easy that his grandmother/monkey could drive it! The era had TC, auto upshifts with manual override for downshifts, pit to car telemetry whereby car adjustments could be made from the pits; respect for driver skill was being lost.




As I said earlier purity of F1 and pretty much sport itself.

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IIRC Lauda said that before test driving a car, before spinning several times in a couple of laps and making himself look pretty stupid

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Dave B

For the best part of 10 years I've been reading threads on here about how dull the sport is/was when Schumacher or Vettel dominated, and now finally there's a genuine chance for midfield teams to do well and people are complaining.

Tyre management is difficult. Here's the dirty secret: F1 is meant to be difficult. Those who get it right reap the rewards. It's not a lottery, it's hard work, talented designers and skilful driving.

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F1 is not endurance racing, it should not be about driving 2 seconds below the limit to save tyres.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I hope that you are happy now - hard tyres, no lead changes, "pure" racing.

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Yeah, watching guys drive to delta time is so much more interesting than seeing the best drivers in the best cars in the world pushing to the absolute limit of their skills and equipment. So interesting.
The other thing that is really interesting is the best drivers in the world having to pit after 8 laps because their tyres are dead eventhough they haven't even pushed to the limit.

Garry Walker, I guess you enjoy the DTM series? It is completely pure and completely dull. I don't want to see F1 like this and if the price is to compromise purity, so be it (in my opinion). Again, I can't understand why only touring cars (and the BTCC in particular) should be exciting. Also, wedge, surely you can understand that F1 is business and at least partly show...

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Yeah, watching guys drive to delta time is so much more interesting than seeing the best drivers in the best cars in the world pushing to the absolute limit of their skills and equipment.

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The tyres are one part of that equipment. If you push to the limit there is always a danger of going over the limit. The skillset of a driver includes the ability to judge & manage the equipment at their disposal whatever the era.

I don't recall there being such vorciferous criticism of the sport thirty years ago when we saw six different winners in the first eight races of 1982, and seven different winners in the first eight races of 1983. The view then was that it was exciting to see the best drivers in the best cars in the world pushing to the absolute limit of their skills and equipment.