What's the real story about ISC and North One?! Nobody know.
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What's the real story about ISC and North One?! Nobody know.
It's complicated, as ISC still exists as a company......Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
Like in relationships: it's complicated... :D
Off the stages too, with GpA and GpN, you were able to easily repair bodywork and cheaply by using the same road car parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by tfp
Look at how it is with Impreza, Focus, Fiesta etc WRC or S2000 cars.
The body panels have to come from the manufacturer works team at a high cost and special delivery to where you are in the world. Total nonsense and this is the main reason why bodykitting from the standard road car bodywork has to stop in rallying.
First I have to say "I am happy with all the news for WRC 2012".
Yet we must not forget that we do not know what happened with the economy for other important things in the WRC!
Here I think about the organizers of the rallies, will they get everything ready financially?
Many companies and politicians have currently other things in their heads than to use the money to be a sponsor for the sport.
No one knows what awaits us off in 2012 and later with the world economy and Europe!
We will see what will happen and hopefully we will not get into trouble themselves privately.
You are right! I am worried that Ford & Mini will not be able to afford their programs for the reason you just mentioned (the cars are looking pretty bereft of sponsorship).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother John
I would have to think that any rally driver dependent on sponsorship would be pretty concerned about a double dip recession in the coming months.
In these financial times – one of the first things to go is sponsorship/ marketing – and companies that still have sponsorship want maximum bang for their buck. Is the WRC/ Rallying delivering this? It’s far easier to put it into circuit racing....
I’m interested what the new Ford deal is – is it more money?, Are they having more than a say in the running of the team?
And what about the organizers of the rallies? We saw in the IRC this year already several rallies disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
With my work I see also many festivals that will disappear next year. :confused:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/...tml#post994390
As we see, and some forum members finally beginning to understand the future of WRC rallies.
It does not look good and it will definitely not improve.
Two + two semi-factory rally teams will run the WRC 2012. Where does it end?
Could it perhaps be that WRC with its roots in Europe and its core fanbase in Europe is facing an extra tough challenge in a time where we will have a recession or maybe even a depression in Europe over maybe the next 5-10 years? (ref. to latest report from UBS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother John
Below is a comparision between WRC, F1 and MotoGP regarding the expansion of where it has had its venues over the last 10 years.
In the year 2000 Formula 1 had 11 out of 17 races in Europe = 65%
In 2012 Formula 1 will have 8 out of 20 races in Europe = 40%
In the year 2014 Formula 1 is expected to have 5 out of 20 races in Europe = 25%
In the year 2002 MotoGP had 10 out of 16 races in Europe = 63%
In 2012 MotoGP will have 12 out of 18 races in Europe = 67%
In the year 2000 WRC had 10 out of 14 rallies in Europe = 71%
In 2012 WRC will have 9 out of 13 rallies in Europe = 69%
As you can see from the numbers above then F1 has reacted to the way the world economy is going and where the manufacturers want to sell cars - and where sponsors want their exposure.
MotoGP looks at the moment as the World Championship that struggles the most with only 12 factury bikes next year. In 2010 Yamaha won all 3 titles and yet they couldn't even attract a single sponsor for the 2011 season. Talk about having a crisis in the sport. Some people in sport jokes that's it's no longer a World championship but a "4 country cup" between Italy, Spain, USA and Australia.
WRC and MotoGP are both struggeling massively with sponsors and TV rights. The exposure is less every year and when I look at the 4 venues that WRC have chose outside Europe one has to wonder why there isn't a rally in China, in Brazil, in Russia or in India. These are the countries where manufacturers want their exposure and where new sponsors could be intruduced to the sport.
There are basically two types of rallyfans:
1: those where the cars and tech development is the most facinating and important
2: those where the drivers ability to master the cars is the most facinating and important! Differnt cars should match eachother, so the driver is the decisive factor.
Those two groups have problems agreeing on the future of rallying. One of the facts of life!
Lets just agree to disagree, and hope both groups will enjoy the future!
and the Brain-dead who just see the ending number of entry lists...count the no of WRCs and S2000 and they are happy if they are high enough.... nobodies and a waste of space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Is there something wrong with me, I have been agreeing with N.O.T. too much lately :(
Ray
that is how brain washing works...if someones opinion is everywhere (and in my case if it is backed-up) you start thinking if the person has a point or not at the end....
I wouldn’t count my self either of them. I’m a little bit of a tech freak and interesting how things works (not only automotive technical things) and what can be done by the rules. On the other hand I’m also interested in the driver’s different driving styles and how they get their max speed.
The group that cannot agree about how the future would like, are the manufacturers. Once read in “Vauhdin Maailma” an interview of the four manufacturer present at that time in WRC. Everyone had a different opinion what should be done and what should be allowed etc.
Time for the FiA to decide what is better for the WRC, not what's better for the Manufacturers - they've led us down a blind alley.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
I can agree with that. If the manufacturers can’t agree what is the best way to go, FIA should take the responsibility to decide how the tech regs and others are in the future.
On the other hand, it’s the manufacturers that make the championship. If they aren’t comfortable with the rules, they wont registered to WRC.
How to find the golden middle way to go?
PS Now it’s time for few hours of sleep. Have a Merry Christmas guys!
I think the first thing that needs to be done for the WRC is that the FIA needs to find a way to encourage new manufacturers to actually do full seasons. I remember when we used to have half a dozen manufacturers, but then they started dropping out and doing half-seasons. Now we've only got two and a half (MINI don't have the budget for a full works campaign) and it's pretty sad. Hopefully some way can be found to get MINI and Volkswagen in full-time. But part of me suspects that they're waiting for Loeb to go before committing to a full program so that they actually have a chance.
I was very encouraged when I saw the story about Argentina expanding its route for 2012, especially since Jean Todt favours it. I have a copy of Automobile Year 1981-82 lying around, and I was leafing through it the other day when I noticed that the shortest rally in 1981 - Finland - was longer than the longest rallies we have today. Argentina was the longest in 1981, with 1370 competitive kilometres. These days we're lucky to get 1370 kilometres in total. And I still remember the epicly-long stages that we used to have, like the 45km Wellington Dam stage in Australia. The WRC today is watered-down and television-friendly, with routes decided by how far television crews can (/are willing to) travel. There was a time when every stage in the rally was only done once, not twice.
I think I'd also like to see the calendar expand out. I'm glad that Monte Carlo is back, but I think the sport needs to push out. A rally in America and another in somewhere like India might be a good place to start.
I've decided that it's time to do something with the hours I have wasted on the Google Maps Pedometer. This is my proposal for a rally - the Rally of America, based in Denver, Colorado:
Day I - 150.70km
Stage 1/5 - Black Hawk (31.19km)
Stage 2/6 - Echo Lake (10.66km)
Stage 3/7 - Squaw Pass (11.80km)
Stage 4/8 - Windy Saddle (21.70km)
Day II - 162.66km
Stage 9/13 -Carriage Hills (11.05km)
Stage 10/14 - Bald Mountain (22.84km)
Stage 11/15 - Switzerland Trail (27.29km)
Stage 12/16 - Sugarloaf (20.15km)
Day III - 119.92km
Stage 17/21 - Dakota Hill (21.17km)
Stage 18/22 - Berthoud Falls (26.18km)
Stage 19/23 - Winter Park (14.72km)
Stage 20/24 - Epworth Lakes (18.93km)
Stage 25 (power stage) - King Flats (10.28km)
Total competitive distance - 433.28km
Okay, so it's not perfect. I don't live in Denver, so I don't know the roads. And access to some of them might be a little difficult. But I think it would make for a fantastic high-speed gravel and low-speed tarmac event, and if it were run at the right time of the year, some of the higher-altitude stages could be run in snowy conditions.
PS - Tried to edit this into my last post, but couldn't do it. Apologies for the double-post.
And yet television — in the shape of major terrestrial channels, i.e. those with by far the biggest national audience shares — has never been less interested in the WRC. Maybe the way in which rallies have ceased now to be 'events', in the way that the RAC Rally used to be a big national 'event' in the UK, is partly to blame for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
Two people walking along the road.
Approaching a downhill one of them start crying.
Approaching an uphill the same one start laughing.
His fella asked him - why are you laughing walking uphill?
He replied him - 'cause after the ascent I know a descent is coming.
The diagram vary UP and DOWN ad infinitum...
The optimist sees the future bright. The pessimist sees it dark.
The optimist sees a half full glass of water as a half filled one.
The pessimist sees it half empty.
I see the glass is being topped up...
Not for Meeke :(Quote:
Originally Posted by danon
When а door closes - another opens!
If we are to discuss the future of the rally, I think we must distinguish between what is best for the WRC, and what is best for the National Championships.
I do not think that what is best for the WRC, is also best for Nat. Chaps.
Regulations of the WRC must be adapted to what is best for most producers (most possible) and this is not necessarily what is best for most Nat.Chaps.
Most probable not. Which classes used for Nat.Chaps, must be adapted to the different countries' needs.
The fact remains, though, that national championships have always been at their most successful when they have run to the same regulations as the World Championship. After all, most spectators naturally want to see those cars. A national series running other, 'inferior' equipment is not going to be viewed as something worth watching. I am also of the view that the FIA, in determining technical regulations — and especially in seeking to keep costs down in coming up with those regulations — should be seeking to act in the interests of the entire sport, and not just the FIA-sanctioned championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Do not think I'm absolutely agree with this assertion BDunnell, when the rally was by far the largest in Sweden, they had a completely separate regulations that were based on kg per hp and no international classes.
Some year in the 70's and 80's there were issued over 20 000 rally licenses. That is what I call successful.
Very interesting. But surely the same equipment was used as on other series?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
No, I do not think so BDunnell. But let us not discuss the old regulations in Sweden, but what should be done in different nationale championships.
If, for example, one country choose to have N4 as top class, it should be allowed to upgrade the older models so they become competitive with newer models.
Example: Evo 7 and 8 should be allowed to mount the Evo 9 engine.
I do not think this will have major effects on who will win, but what I think is not important. But as long as those who will participate thinks they have a better chance of winning if they have as much hp as the so-called best in class, even if they have an older car, the number of participants in this class will hopefully increase.
It is very important to give those with less money, the feeling of being able to win.
To make things clearer.
I know that such regulations exist in some countries already, but it does not seem that what works in one country are automatically tried in other countries.
I think that's a shame.
I think the WRC needs to get some more rallies going. I know the calendar was scaled back from sixteen events to thirteen over concerns about rising costs, but I think the sport has suffered a little bit because of it, largely because the traditional rallies are the only ones being run, so it gets a little stagnant when the sport should be growing. A rally in America would be good, probably somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. Denver in Colorado or Rapid City in South Dakota would be good choices; a quick look on Google Maps shows there are some great-looking roads up in the mountains. I also think that India would be another good choice, possibly based in Goa. And a new event in Europe probably wouldn't hurt, either. Maybe an event in Austria or Russia. The IRC has demonstrated that it is easy to get these events up and running, and even if the event has to be a candidate for a year or two, I think the growth of the sport is important.
I think rallying in India is too big of a risk considering how mad the driving culture there is.
The Indians have their own rally championship:
Indian National Rally Championship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It was started back in 1988. So there's obviously some kind of control there - I doubt a rally in India would play out like the 1999 China Rally when no-one told the locals that rally cars would be coming through.
+1 !Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
A 'new Alpenfahrt' rallye on those beautiful roads...
Just having a quick play around with the Google Maps Pedometer shows there is some fantastic stuff in Austria that could be used for rallying. Like this, twenty-six kilometres near the Slovenian border; or this, twelve kilometres of undulations in Voralberg. Although not being Austrian, I must confess that I don't really know how appropriate the roads would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertS
I imagine that a Rally of Austria - no doubt sponsored by Red Bull - would be a kind of Monte Carlo-Finland hybrid, with fast tarmac roads at lower altitudes and twisty gravel stages covered in snow at higher altitudes.
Austria - whenever...for example a possible good season-start: Monte, 'new Alpenfahrt', SwedenQuote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
Furthermore this is the heart of Europe, a 'fair-distance' for most of the traveling fans ;)
Few 'atmospheric-shots' from the old times >
1973
Imagedatabase
1972
Imagedatabase
1971
Imagedatabase
1970
Imagedatabase
cars will be dropped there with a helicopter ;)
Well, for one, the stage would be run in reverse to the way I drew it (which is why I removed the mile markers). So the problem is not getting in, it's getting out. I imagine that this would be the last stage of the day, so the cars could regroup after the stage and be let through in groups, with the stage being suspended for a few minutes at a time (if that - with cars going at two-minute intervals, it could be possible to have a traffic control at the crossing, allowing the cars through one at a time with minimal danger).Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Alternatively, I could just re-draw it like this and the problem is solved. But I never suggested it could be an actual stage - I was just using the pedometer to highlight how good some of the roads in Austria are for rallying. If I had the time (and, well, I do), I could probably draw up a twenty-odd stage rally with a proper length and access and everything a reasonable distance from the rally base.
I wish you a happy and healthy 2012.
Jag önskar dig en glad och frisk 2012.
Ik wens jullie een voorspoedig en gezond 2012.
Was it not a way that we could fly recce in 3D through the terrain ? Feel I have seen this somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
You're probably thinking of Google Earth.
Although the pedometer does have a topographical map fucntion. If you know how to read it, you can visualise the terrain.