4 degrees of camber

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

That's his prerogative you know.....

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On the contrary, and despite what your post suggests, I quite like RBR as a team. I am a great admirer of Adrian Newey’s in particular. My whole point in this thread from the start has been to call how silly it was of RBR to go beyond Pirelli’s recommended camber angle. I think we can all agree, maybe with the exception of Daniel, that this was a risky decision that could have ended in either of or both their drivers being harmed. This is my point. RBR pushed the limitations. Pirelli gave the recommendation with good cause and RBR in good conscience should have adhered to that.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Should we tolerate this though? It's no better than the people who see that Lewis has one sideburn longer in a press conference than the other and who criticise him for it and would happily have him banned for it.

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Not potentially harmful to his health though, is it?

Do you suppose Newey was being blase with his concern for the tyres durability, or a real concern?

If it's a real concern, you'd summise that they were indeed, sailing more than just a little too close to the wind methinks.

Anyway, we get that you disagree with The Black Knight.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

It's like talking to a brick wall! :rolleyes:

The fact that McLaren's tyres were also blistering is not irrelevant.

Neither you nor anyone on here actually knows how close the tyres were to failing, you come on here with emotive language in place of facts and knowledge just so you can have a dig at one team. I could say that they were absolutely fine and there was no chance of failure and you could say that if they'd done another lap both drivers would be dead and both of us would be wrong because we simply do not know. Those are the FACTS.

At the end of the day this is racing and it's part of the allure. I bet you anything if it were McLaren who had run more than the recommended camber and got away with it then you'd be congratulating them on their master stroke :rolleyes:

RBR won, deal with it.

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No Daniel I wouldn't. Please stop applying your limited view of the world to me. I will never advocate a team that goes beyond safety limits and puts their drivers lives at risks. The only relevant piece we need to know here is that RBR took a risk and ignored Pirelli's advice which it can only be said was given on safety grounds. NO team should ever ignore safety advice from any party with which they are involved. If RBR were to do it and they were confident that their tyres would last i.e. they had data to support it then I wouldn't have an issue with it. Clearly they shot in the dark, realised they may have made a mistake, pissed their pants and were in all probability very lucky to get away with what they did. Safety should never be ignored.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

On the contrary, and despite what your post suggests, I quite like RBR as a team. I am a great admirer of Adrian Newey’s in particular. My whole point in this thread from the start has been to call how silly it was of RBR to go beyond Pirelli’s recommended camber angle. I think we can all agree, maybe with the exception of Daniel, that this was a risky decision that could have ended in either of or both their drivers being harmed. This is my point. RBR pushed the limitations. Pirelli gave the recommendation with good cause and RBR in good conscience should have adhered to that.

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Thing is, Pirelli is in F1 to look good, having your tyres blister is not necessarily going to make you look good. A blistering tyre though doesn't necessarily indicate a tyre that is in imminent danger of failure. Neither you nor I ACTUALLY know whether there was a danger of a failure or not. We do not know. We don't know!!!!!!

Daniel is correct that we do not know just how marginal the tyres were or if they would fail. However, RBR and to a lesser degree McLaren were pretty concerned.

TBK is correct that setting the cars up with excessive camber was pretty stupid. It came off on this occasions but if there had of been a failure, would have been in deep crap.

But, there is no need to start attacking the poster Dan so possibly best to leave it there.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

No Daniel I wouldn't. Please stop applying your limited view of the world to me. I will never advocate a team that goes beyond safety limits and puts their drivers lives at risks. The only relevant piece we need to know here is that RBR took a risk and ignored Pirelli's advice which it can only be said was given on safety grounds. NO team should ever ignore safety advice from any party with which they are involved. If RBR were to do it and they were confident that their tyres would last i.e. they had data to support it then I wouldn't have an issue with it. Clearly they shot in the dark, realised they may have made a mistake, pissed their pants and were in all probability very lucky to get away with what they did. Safety should never be ignored.

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:laugh:

AS I keep on saying, we don't actually know how close the tyres were to going pop, we don't know if the 4 degree recommendation (note: RECOMMENDATION) is there to stop tyres blistering or wearing quickly which won't look good for Pirelli, or whether there is a genuine risk of the tyres going boom. To say " ignored Pirelli's advice which it can only be said was given on safety grounds" is not necessarily true, like I say, it could be safety or it could be just there to make the tyres last longer and make Pirelly look better. We don't know one way or the other.

Do you honestly think that when that first set of tyres came of Seb's car that Adrian and Pirelli weren't looking at them to see whether there had been damage done to the carcass or not? Do you think they went through the whole race genuinely not knowing? I somehow doubt that this is the case.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

we don't know if the 4 degree recommendation (note: RECOMMENDATION) is there to stop tyres blistering.

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Not to stop the blistering, clearly, because Ferrari for example, who we know are easy on their tyres, and were running only 3 degrees camber, still blistered the shoulder.

To me, this showed the extent of Pirelli's concern, and justifies their uneasyness in respect of Red Bulls camber angle.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

when that first set of tyres came of Seb's car that Adrian and Pirelli weren't looking at them to see whether there had been damage done to the carcass

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You won't know that until Pirelli gets the tyre off the rim, and inspects the internal surface of the tyre.........

I'd imagine tyres already run in such a manner from qualifying 1 and 2 were subsequently inspected thus, and a reasoned level of concern was then raised by Pirelli.......

I very much doubt Pirelli licked a finger and stuck it in the air to draw their safety concerns.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Daniel is correct that we do not know just how marginal the tyres were or if they would fail. However, RBR and to a lesser degree McLaren were pretty concerned.

TBK is correct that setting the cars up with excessive camber was pretty stupid. It came off on this occasions but if there had of been a failure, would have been in deep crap.

But, there is no need to start attacking the poster Dan so possibly best to leave it there.

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I COMPLETELY agree with you there. What I dislike (and what I was attacking) is people presenting supposition as fact. It's entirely possible that the tyres were very much marginal or that they could have gone another 10 laps. Without knowing either way I think it's extremely silly to attempt to present either view as being definite and therefore making statements to the effect of one team risking the lives of their drivers. I love to deal with facts, they're great and you can actually prove things one way or another with them, speculation is fine a well, but you have to realise that it's only speculation and you can never say for sure.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You won't know that until Pirelli gets the tyre off the rim, and inspects the internal surface of the tyre.........

I'd imagine tyres already run in such a manner from qualifying 1 and 2 were subsequently inspected thus, and a reasoned level of concern was then raised by Pirelli.......

I very much doubt Pirelli licked a finger and stuck it in the air to draw their safety concerns.

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Of course, it may be that Pirelli was right on the money and RBR were dicing with death, or Pirelli may have been conservative and RBR were running the tyre within safe parameters.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Of course, it may be that Pirelli was right on the money and RBR were dicing with death, or Pirelli may have been conservative and RBR were running the tyre within safe parameters.

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Which I'm sure is exactly why Newey, one of the most experienced men on the grid, was so nervous for his drivers... because RBR ran within safe parameters. Something not fit with this picture to you?

Given Newey's nervous demeanour and considering RBR were considering starting their drivers from the start of the grid, do you not think that they were indeed very close to the limit of the tyres and they knew that? Would it not make sense?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

:laugh:

AS I keep on saying, we don't actually know how close the tyres were to going pop, we don't know if the 4 degree recommendation (note: RECOMMENDATION) is there to stop tyres blistering or wearing quickly which won't look good for Pirelli, or whether there is a genuine risk of the tyres going boom. To say " ignored Pirelli's advice which it can only be said was given on safety grounds" is not necessarily true, like I say, it could be safety or it could be just there to make the tyres last longer and make Pirelly look better. We don't know one way or the other.

Do you honestly think that when that first set of tyres came of Seb's car that Adrian and Pirelli weren't looking at them to see whether there had been damage done to the carcass or not? Do you think they went through the whole race genuinely not knowing? I somehow doubt that this is the case.

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Since the tyres were blistering at a 4 degree camber angle anyway it is unlikely the 4 degree recommendation was given on the grounds of looking good. Pirelli’s foremost responsibility is to the safety of the drivers. Clearly, at Spa, RBR’s went beyond this and **** themselves.

[quote="The Black Knight"]Which I'm sure is exactly why Newey, one of the most experienced men on the grid, was so nervous for his drivers... because RBR ran within safe parameters. Something not fit with this picture to you?

I think you're getting it all back to front here.

McLaren wanted to replace their tyres too and RBR simply saw an opportunity to advantage themselves and dress it up safety concerns. You can't fault them for trying I guess. RBR never actually talked about starting from the pits, it was of course an option they would have been allowed to choose IF they had felt there was grave danger to the safety of the drivers.

Personally I feel that you can't have your cake and eat it. McLaren and RBR reaped the reward of running camber and you can't allow them to then get rid of the tyres which were worn because of the camber.

You seem to be interpreting everything with a huge amount of bias, I'm a big safety person, I'd love it if the cars had canopies on them, I wish drivers wouldn't hit each other at high speed and I appreciate the potential for running too much camber to cause a tyre failure, but what this actually on the cards? As I keep repeating, we don't know. Till RBR or Pirelli come out and issue a statement we don't know. We literally do not know and to say that it was or wasn't at the moment is pure speculation.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Since the tyres were blistering at a 4 degree camber angle anyway it is unlikely the 4 degree recommendation was given on the grounds of looking good. Pirelli’s foremost responsibility is to the safety of the drivers. Clearly, at Spa, RBR’s went beyond this and **** themselves.

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Ferrari were running closer to 3 degrees of camber and were still getting blistering.

Obviously Newey wasn't happy, that much is plain to see, but do you honestly think with the lead that they've got, that he wouldn't have just started them both from the pitlane with a fresh set of tyres and reduced camber if he had real concerns?

Never would have thought that a subject on camber would get 13 pages of posts and counting :crazy:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Never would have thought that a subject on camber would get 13 pages of posts and counting :crazy:

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That's the danger of supposition, you never thought it would make it to 13 pages but it did :D

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Never would have thought that a subject on camber would get 13 pages of posts and counting :crazy:

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13? I'm on the last post on page 7! :p

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

13? I'm on the last post on page 7! :p

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5 for me.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Yes I think that was what was stated as far as who approached who. Its also been reported that both McLaren and Ferrari had blistered tyres after final qualifying and made the adjustments recommended by Pirelli. I don't know what these adjustments are however.. :)

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False report. They would have had to start from the pit lane if they did setup changes after the qualy.
Don't believe everything you read.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

RBR chose to set their car up in a certain way despite the recommendations of their tyre supplier. It was a gamble which, on this occasion, worked perfectly for them with a 1-2 in the race. But that doesn't give them the right to expect to be exempt from the rules.

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What rules did they not obey?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If this were McLaren and they'd run this much camber and unlike RBR hadn't asked if they could change their tyres or camber settings, we would potentially be here talking about how it was a master stroke and how great Button is in these sorts of conditions or whatever.

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I guess this pretty much sums up this whole thread! :up:

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Since the tyres were blistering at a 4 degree camber angle anyway it is unlikely the 4 degree recommendation was given on the grounds of looking good. Pirelli’s foremost responsibility is to the safety of the drivers. Clearly, at Spa, RBR’s went beyond this and **** themselves.

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I guess the **** mean :up: :up: :up: :up: !

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Originally Posted by ioan

What rules did they not obey?

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Read what I posted. They didn't break any rules, but applied to breach parc fermé conditions without sanction.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Read what I posted. They didn't break any rules, but applied to breach parc fermé conditions without sanction.

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It wouldn't have been the first time when a team would be granted the possibility to make changes in parc ferme due to a safety issue.

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Originally Posted by ioan

It wouldn't have been the first time when a team would be granted the possibility to make changes in parc ferme due to a safety issue.

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But it would have been due entirely to RBR knowingly ignoring the recommendations of their tyres supplier.

As I said earlier, imagine they'd blanked off their brake cooling ducts against Brembo*'s advice, then discovered in Q that the brakes overheated. Would anybody be taking cheap shots at Brembo?

*or whoever their brake supplier is.

I have just shown what a light weight fan I am, I left this morning 3 pages into Camber, and returned now to see 8. And the light weight I am didn't read all 5 pages on camber.

My guess is that the debate got heated for at least 2 of those pages. :p :

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Originally Posted by Dave B

But it would have been due entirely to RBR knowingly ignoring the recommendations of their tyres supplier.

As I said earlier, imagine they'd blanked off their brake cooling ducts against Brembo*'s advice, then discovered in Q that the brakes overheated. Would anybody be taking cheap shots at Brembo?

*or whoever their brake supplier is.

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They didn't have much dry running until qualy as far as I remember so not sure what the situation was, but did Pirelli make the recommendations before or after qualifying?

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Originally Posted by henners88

I made it clear I didn't pin all my beliefs on what had read, but thanks for the advice.

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I hope you have the same stance 'on what had written'! ;)
Just joking.

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Originally Posted by vhatever

I think you have totally lost the plot. This thread is about regulating camber settings. And since it appears you are totally confused about the difference between a recommendation and a regulation, you really should contemplate on it, preferably with a dictionary by your side.

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It is you that has lost the plot. I'm quite aware of what I posted, and very aware that it's not your place to decide what I can post. RBR ran the tires beyond the Pirelli spec. I did not imply or state this created a rules violation, simply that RBR put themselves in the situation of having tire problems.

RBR then requested an allowance for new tires without starting from the pit lane, thus requested to circumvent the regulations regarding parc ferme.



I'd have someone retrieve the dictionary for you, but it's apparent that due to cranial rectumitis your head is in the way. :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Which I'm sure is exactly why Newey, one of the most experienced men on the grid, was so nervous for his drivers... because RBR ran within safe parameters. Something not fit with this picture to you?

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I think you're getting it all back to front here.

McLaren wanted to replace their tyres too and RBR simply saw an opportunity to advantage themselves and dress it up safety concerns. You can't fault them for trying I guess. RBR never actually talked about starting from the pits, it was of course an option they would have been allowed to choose IF they had felt there was grave danger to the safety of the drivers.

Personally I feel that you can't have your cake and eat it. McLaren and RBR reaped the reward of running camber and you can't allow them to then get rid of the tyres which were worn because of the camber.

You seem to be interpreting everything with a huge amount of bias, I'm a big safety person, I'd love it if the cars had canopies on them, I wish drivers wouldn't hit each other at high speed and I appreciate the potential for running too much camber to cause a tyre failure, but what this actually on the cards? As I keep repeating, we don't know. Till RBR or Pirelli come out and issue a statement we don't know. We literally do not know and to say that it was or wasn't at the moment is pure speculation.

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My Dear Daniel, I see what you're saying. However, this is a forum of discussion and most people here, barring a few, think outside the box and for themselves. Thinking for yourself involves drawing your own conclusions based on facts with which you are presented. Sometimes our conclusions can differ. When this happens we discuss our conclusions with each other. This is the nature of debate. If we all stuck to bare facts and made no suppositions based on those facts then we would have nothing to discuss.

It is very clear from Newey's demeanour throughout the Belgium GP and the fact that he had tears in his eyes as both his drivers crossed the finish line that he was very worried about his drivers. The only conclusion I can come to is that he was indeed very worried about the possibility of RBR's tyres delaminating. I base this conclusion on events leading up to the Grand Prix and what Newey and RBR said afterwards. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to the conlusion that RBR were bricking it.

Whether tyre failure was actually on the cards or not? I don't really know. I would imagine that were the drivers left out there for long enough then it probably was. Therefore, based on everything else, my opinion is that RBR needlessly took a sily risk, went beyond Pirelli's 4 degree camber recommendation and both drivers could have paid the price.

Pirelli's motivations for recommending 4 degrees camber is subject to scrutiny of course. However, as far as we know, no other team went beyond their recommendations. RBR were clearly concerned for their drivers. This would draw me to conclude that Pirelli's recommendation was suggested, at least partially, on safety grounds and when this is forms part of a recommendation it should NEVER be ignored.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Possibly one of the best responses I've ever seen here. :laugh: :up:

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I concur :D

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Ferrari were running closer to 3 degrees of camber and were still getting blistering.

Obviously Newey wasn't happy, that much is plain to see, but do you honestly think with the lead that they've got, that he wouldn't have just started them both from the pitlane with a fresh set of tyres and reduced camber if he had real concerns?

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Well, that's not really up to Newey, is it? That decision is down to Christian Horner. As mentioned already, I have huge admiration for Adrian and if given the choice I believe he would have started the cars from the pitlane. Again, this is just my opinion. Horner, being team principal, has more to lose by doing that. It reflects particularly bad upon him if his team stretches the limits of performance and have to start at the back of the grid because of it. It also reflects bad upon him if the tyres blow out because of the teams own error caused by a conscious decision they made. They took the risk and it paid off. Either way, they made a silly mistake and brought the whole situation upon themselves.

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Originally Posted by henners88

The teams have been issued a recommended camber limit of 3.75 degree's for Monza by Pirelli its been announced on Autosport.

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That's what Hembery said they would do . Drop the recommended maximum angle .

Anyone betting against the Bulls breaching the max again , now that the max is minimized ?

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Originally Posted by airshifter

It is you that has lost the plot. I'm quite aware of what I posted, and very aware that it's not your place to decide what I can post. RBR ran the tires beyond the Pirelli spec. I did not imply or state this created a rules violation, simply that RBR put themselves in the situation of having tire problems.

RBR then requested an allowance for new tires without starting from the pit lane, thus requested to circumvent the regulations regarding parc ferme.

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That is not true, they didn't ask to change the tires, Pirelli told them to change the camber angle but they were not allowed to do it without starting from the pitlane.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'd have someone retrieve the dictionary for you, but it's apparent that due to cranial rectumitis your head is in the way. :)

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I guess some can insult other forum members around here while considering themselves smart in doing so! LOL

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

That's what Hembery said they would do . Drop the recommended maximum angle .

Anyone betting against the Bulls breaching the max again , now that the max is minimized?

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Most probably that is the idea behind the move.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Pirelli's motivations for recommending 4 degrees camber is subject to scrutiny of course. However, as far as we know, no other team went beyond their recommendations. RBR were clearly concerned for their drivers. This would draw me to conclude that Pirelli's recommendation was suggested, at least partially, on safety grounds and when this is forms part of a recommendation it should NEVER be ignored.

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With that attitude no team would ever hire you.

Racing is about pushing the limits.

Many, many teams across motorsport are willing to take advice with some degree of salt.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well you attempt to put people down in most of your posts and airshifters line was much better and intelligent sounding than anything you've ever come up with.. :p ;)

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You're way of judging intelligence recommends you for a footy commentator position, or alternatively you could take Eddie Jordan's place in the BBC team! :rotflmao:
You asked for it, so don't come crying. :p

I think this is as close to a definitive narrative of the whole sorry mess. Looks like RBR are getting peoples backs up.

The Red Bull Pirelli saga: What really happened (2

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Originally Posted by ioan

That is not true, they didn't ask to change the tires, Pirelli told them to change the camber angle but they were not allowed to do it without starting from the pitlane.

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"Discussions between the teams, the FIA and Pirelli took place on the morning of the race with one option being replacement front tyres for the top ten, who had to start the race on the tyres they qualified on. However, several other teams believed that that would be unfair and vetoed the measure. As a result the likes of Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari were faced with the dilemma of whether to allow their cars to start with their existing set-ups or change them and start from the pit lane. "

Red Bull nearly started Belgian Grand Prix from the pit lane | Belgian Grand Prix | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1

Quotes are a wonderful thing. Surely you can provide a link showing where Pirelli, without being approached, told RB to change the camber angle? The change was suggested only after RB went crying and wanting fresh tires for the race start... without the penalty of changing tires.

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Originally Posted by wedge

With that attitude no team would ever hire you.

Racing is about pushing the limits.

Many, many teams across motorsport are willing to take advice with some degree of salt.

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And what would you know about what a team would and wouldn't hire?

There is no problem in pushing the limits reliability wise... not when it comes to safety. If RBR had reason to doubt Pirelli's camber angle suggestion then fair enough. Clearly they were wrong if they did. One should never put your drivers lives at unnecessary risk. Maybe that's why RBR are in the lead of the championship though. They have taken more risks than anyone else and it has paid off, except this time they pushed it to the point of where they had reason to believe they may have pushed it too far.