Wikileaks

The actual question is whether this constitutes treason by giving aid to the enemy.

Seems beyond a reasonable doubt that it does.

Further the people who initially leaked this stuff, are no doubt clearly in violation of the law. By assisting them, Wilikleaks is a co-conspirator or a party to the crime.


Will anything be done?
No, because it is too big of a political, freedom of the press, type of issue, and we have Obama who will only do something if his back is to the wall. OTOH, I guess with enough pressure, something might happen.....no accident that his website has now become a target whereever it goes.


Is it good for all of us that this stuff is leaked?
That is a totally different question.

Time will tell I suppose.

Damn. It's laughable the furore that these leaks have caused.

When Valerie Plame was outed by the Bush Administration and their "in the pocket" journalists there was not half the fuss.
The right wing totally forgot that a covert CIA agent was working for everyone and that many people as a result had and still have their lives in jeopardy. All for political means. "Damn the cost in lives. We will win somehow"

Libby, Cheney, Rice,Bush, Wolfovitz(sic) Yoo, Aldridge, Gonzalez and all the apologists around the country who defended an agent whose purpose was to make sure there was no further proliferation of nuclear weapons.

And now the hissyfit over Wikileaks. Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by glauistean

Damn. It's laughable the furore that these leaks have caused.

When Valerie Plame was outed by the Bush Administration and their "in the pocket" journalists there was not half the fuss.
The right wing totally forgot that a covert CIA agent was working for everyone and that many people as a result had and still have their lives in jeopardy. All for political means. "Damn the cost in lives. We will win somehow"

Libby, Cheney, Rice,Bush, Wolfovitz(sic) Yoo, Aldridge, Gonzalez and all the apologists around the country who defended an agent whose purpose was to make sure there was no further proliferation of nuclear weapons.

And now the hissyfit over Wikileaks. Give me a break.

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dude, that must be some excellent mushrooms you been honking on.....

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Originally Posted by markabilly

dude, that must be some excellent mushrooms you been honking on.....

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Enlighten me/us.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

The actual question is whether this constitutes treason by giving aid to the enemy.

Seems beyond a reasonable doubt that it does.

Further the people who initially leaked this stuff, are no doubt clearly in violation of the law. By assisting them, Wilikleaks is a co-conspirator or a party to the crime.


Will anything be done?
No, because it is too big of a political, freedom of the press, type of issue, and we have Obama who will only do something if his back is to the wall. OTOH, I guess with enough pressure, something might happen.....no accident that his website has now become a target whereever it goes.


Is it good for all of us that this stuff is leaked?
That is a totally different question.

Time will tell I suppose.

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You talk to me about mushrooms and then state treason! He can't be charged with treason as he is not a US citizen.

Go get yourself some mushrooms.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I would suggest that you may come across as boorish and rude. In the workplace it very rarely does to utter one's unchecked opinions of one's colleagues, unless one is very lucky and has a uniformly excellent group of co-workers, as I once had.

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I believe that being open will ultimately drive the team in the direction of a more united team where everyone will give his/her best.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What a shame what was an interesting thread containing some very welcome debate has degenerated into a farce, with almost a whole page of comments — barring those from Mark and Eki — that are barely decipherable and have nothing to do with the matter in hand.

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:up:

Indeed, which makes the thread a bit dull at times.

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Originally Posted by Ghostwalker

...Imo its the obligation of people to reveal crimes committed by politicians and military forces. Just because they are politicians doesn't mean that they are untouchable.

And finally as i wrote in one of my previous posts. According to US laws Julian Assange and WL have not done anything illegal by publishing the leaked information.

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:up: :up:
This may sound strange coming from a conservative American, but everything you said here, I am right on line with.

I think it’s bloody outrageous that heads of state, much less a wolf-pack media would suggest bringing him up on charges of “treason”, not to mention some low-intelligent life-forms advocating his assassination.

I just hope the people in my country realize that knowledge is power, and useful to keep the powers that be in check – before a time comes when it's too late.

Consider me a Wiki-Freak.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I believe that being open will ultimately drive the team in the direction of a more united team where everyone will give his/her best.

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True, but there are limits.

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Originally Posted by AAReagles

I just hope the people in my country realize that knowledge is power, and useful to keep the powers that be in check – before a time comes when it's too late.

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I couldn't agree more. In many ways, the powers-that-be in any country are by far the worst people to be deciding what information should be released and what shouldn't. Whether Wikileaks is quite the right method is another matter, of course.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I couldn't agree more. In many ways, the powers-that-be in any country are by far the worst people to be deciding what information should be released and what shouldn't. Whether Wikileaks is quite the right method is another matter, of course.

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Well as long as Wikileaks doesn't become another company bought out by a large corporation with particular interests - such as control of information.

This J. Assange may not be the most ethical character in cyberland, but at least his work let's it be known that anyone and anything can be exposed to the masses.

... more importantly, he's illustrated - without much effort I might add - the mentality of those in power who wish to shut him down by any means necessary. Hence the powerful are causing more damage to themselves judging the reactionary remarks they're making to the "legal" media right now.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

True, but there are limits.

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You are right however that's down to individual cases that should not be generalized.
Let's just say that I am an extreme believer in freedom of systems, of any kind, that will tend towards equilibrium on their own if not constantly tampered with.

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Originally Posted by AAReagles

... more importantly, he's illustrated - without much effort I might add - the mentality of those in power who wish to shut him down by any means necessary. Hence the powerful are causing more damage to themselves judging the reactionary remarks they're making to the "legal" media right now.

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True that.
Still I think that only a privileged part of the society really understand what is going on, I wish this would be the majority one day.

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Originally Posted by ioan

True that.
Still I think that only a privileged part of the society really understand what is going on, I wish this would be the majority one day.

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It can be. If people are open-minded enough.... which lies the problem. People (over here anyways) get stuck on stupid, from listening to (and believing) major network talking heads or the other pseudo-rational factions, such as limosine-liberals and red-rooster-preaching right-wingers.

There needs to be moderation on both sides... or get out and see what the real world is like.

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Originally Posted by AAReagles

... or get out and see what the real world is like.

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I think this is the best way to do it, and best is before one becomes indoctrinated by the media (left or right one) and only judges through predefined stereotypes.
It is also a question of will, as it is easier to do nothing than to do anything good or bad.

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Originally Posted by glauistean

You talk to me about mushrooms and then state treason! He can't be charged with treason as he is not a US citizen.

Go get yourself some mushrooms.

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then he is a spy, no different than any other spy and should be executed as with any other spy.......up against the wall.....oh opps we don't do that anymore, we trade them.... :rolleyes:

And Ioan lives in France, a country with a screwed up justice system far worse than the USA.
but the mushrooms in France, ah, oh me oh me



And let him start publishing some Putin secrets and see what happens.....No doubt, leakey would be squeaky as they lined him up....
yep find out real quick what the real world is like

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Originally Posted by markabilly

then he is a spy, no different than any other spy and should be executed as with any other spy.......up against the wall.....oh opps we don't do that anymore, we trade them.... :rolleyes:

And Ioan lives in France, a country with a screwed up justice system far worse than the USA.
but the mushrooms in France, ah, oh me oh me



And let him start publishing some Putin secrets and see what happens.....No doubt, leakey would be squeaky as they lined him up....
yep find out real quick what the real world is like

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Markabilly, this is a very lame response. You inferred that the Valerie Plame

case was of no consequence and proceeded instead of giving a reason as

to why you did a Bill O'Reilly or a Sean Hannity. You went off in a tangent

about French Law.

Accusing me of using mind altering drugs while posting my thoughts is the

height of juvenile ignorance.

Why are you posting a response when you are contributing nothing.

Again, I state that the outing of Valerie Plame was/is worse than anything

these past few Wikileaks have shown.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

And Ioan lives in France, a country with a screwed up justice system far worse than the USA.

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The French justice system is just terrible isn't it? All of that droit public which are pretty well much the same as common law principles, and that annoying matter of the principle of equity which exists in France (as well as the British Commonwealth) but which doesn't in the USA.

Then there's that simply ghastly suggestion of due process. Why bother when you can simply arrest foreign nationals on the basis of laws which haven't yet been written, and then hold them without trial on something that isn't technically US soil?
Obtaining information by torture? How delightful. Then supposedly standing for the highest principles of justice in the world, but refusing to sign an internationally agreed human rights agreement. Far better than the French justice system.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The French justice system is just terrible isn't it? All of that droit public which are pretty well much the same as common law principles, and that annoying matter of the principle of equity which exists in France (as well as the British Commonwealth) but which doesn't in the USA.

Then there's that simply ghastly suggestion of due process. Why bother when you can simply arrest foreign nationals on the basis of laws which haven't yet been written, and then hold them without trial on something that isn't technically US soil?
Obtaining information by torture? How delightful. Then supposedly standing for the highest principles of justice in the world, but refusing to sign an internationally agreed human rights agreement. Far better than the French justice system.

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Couldn't have said it better! :up:

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Originally Posted by markabilly

And Ioan lives in France, a country with a screwed up justice system far worse than the USA.

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Not anymore.
Now I often live in hotels in countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia, where I can only dream of having the French justice system.

France is a great country, minus Sarkozy but he'll be out of office one day and everything will be OK again.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I bet most other teachers would envy your gig though.

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One has to live some stuff before understanding it for what it is.

Being a teacher certainly had it's many positive sides, like 4 months vacation per year, however the pay was not enough to be away from home for 4 months! :D

Now the pay is great but I barely manage to take 2 weeks off a year, even though I have the right to 5 weeks.

I guess next step will be to find a compromise! ;)

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Originally Posted by markabilly

... And let him start publishing some Putin secrets and see what happens.....No doubt, leakey would be squeaky as they lined him up....
yep find out real quick what the real world is like

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In all reality, Assange wouldn't have no need to go after Russia, or China for that matter, at least not yet anyways.

Regrettably, as an American, I must admit that he has a point. Since we're still operating on the Pax Americana mentality.

I don't know about you, but I've been tired of this body-bag politics, playing Capt. Save-A-Ho' of the world for quite some time now.

Yes, I do believe in going after Bin Laden

Yes, I do believe in taking out Saddam Hussien

But appeasing other gov'ts with financial aid & arms sales just so they'll stick to our geopolitical arena of 'democracy' - which it is not - is not only fiscally detrimental in the long run, but morally unnacceptable as well.

Mr. Assange - or Wikileaks if you will - is a necessary evil at this stage of the game. This country is long overdue for transparency of how are tax dollars are being utilized by the people, you and I have hired via voting. The gov't won't provide it, so us Americans have to rely on a globe-trotting Australian instead. Which says a lot if you ask me.

Also, I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to wait for some Whitehouse braintrust like Robert McNamara to come out 30-odd years later and say "Uh, well, we were wrong. The war was a mistake."

Our global enterprise is done. Time to put the toys away.

Every attack on Mr Assange by the powers in Washington from having him wanted by interpol on regurgitated rape charges, freezing his swiss bank account, removing his mastercard and paypal facilities on allegations of him using them for criminal activities (with no charges as yet made against him in this regard) makes it look more like the plot from the movie 'Enemy of the state' prompting a backlash from hackers worldwide using 'Denial of service' attacks on both the Mastercard and Paypal websites.

He must have known this would happen yet seems ready and prepared to be the sacrificial lamb. I have a feeling this could prove to be an own goal for his prosecutors/persecutors.

Opinions?

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Originally Posted by Zico

Every attack on Mr Assange by the powers in Washington from having him wanted by interpol on regurgitated rape charges, freezing his swiss bank account, removing his mastercard and paypal facilities on allegations of him using them for criminal activities (with no charges as yet made against him in this regard) makes it look more like the plot from the movie 'Enemy of the state' prompting a backlash from hackers worldwide using 'Denial of service' attacks on both the Mastercard and Paypal websites.

He must have known this would happen yet seems ready and prepared to be the sacrificial lamb. I have a feeling this could prove to be an own goal for his prosecutors/persecutors.

Opinions?

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It just proves the stupidity of those who are after him (i.e. Mrs Clinton and Co).

Why do you people think you can receive stolen property and do what ever you want with it???

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Why do you people think you can receive stolen property and do what ever you want with it???

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Define "property"? I understand that patents and such are and can be called "intellectual property", but they have to be examined and published first by outsiders before you can call them your property. Wikileaks has revealed information that also concerns other people and nations than Americans and the US. In fact some may even claim that the US diplomats/spies have stolen information from the likes of Karzai, Gaddaffi and Putin.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Define "property"? I understand that patents and such are and can be called "intellectual property", but they have to be examined and published first by outsiders before you can call them your property. Wikileaks has revealed information that also concerns other people and nations than Americans and the US. In fact some may even claim that the US diplomats/spies have stolen information from the likes of Karzai, Gaddaffi and Putin.

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there is really no way to spin this EKI as much as you would like to. Yes and most of the time spies are punished if caught. We need to pop this guy and move on. If you can prove the diplomats were spies pop them too. See I am a equal opportunity "Popper"

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Originally Posted by Roamy

there is really no way to spin this EKI as much as you would like to. Yes and most of the time spies are punished if caught. We need to pop this guy and move on. If you can prove the diplomats were spies pop them too. See I am a equal opportunity "Popper"

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Fousto, the Big Popper.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

there is really no way to spin this EKI as much as you would like to. Yes and most of the time spies are punished if caught. We need to pop this guy and move on. If you can prove the diplomats were spies pop them too. See I am a equal opportunity "Popper"

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He didn't steal the info, he just publishes it. No one can call that spying. Spies don't publish their information. Spying equals secrecy, not publicity.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Why do you people think you can receive stolen property and do what ever you want with it???

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are investigative journalists entitled to freedom of speech ? I thought it was part of what makes your country great. Still, I guess Nixon would probably agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Zico

Every attack on Mr Assange by the powers in Washington from having him wanted by interpol on regurgitated rape charges, freezing his swiss bank account, removing his mastercard and paypal facilities on allegations of him using them for criminal activities (with no charges as yet made against him in this regard) makes it look more like the plot from the movie 'Enemy of the state' prompting a backlash from hackers worldwide using 'Denial of service' attacks on both the Mastercard and Paypal websites.

He must have known this would happen yet seems ready and prepared to be the sacrificial lamb. I have a feeling this could prove to be an own goal for his prosecutors/persecutors.

Opinions?

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Mr. Assange also reintroduced the term 'feudal system' during one of his interviews - and rightly so I might add. Since none of the biased, corporate media (over here at least) has any integrity to mention it.

Apparently the US and Russia plotted against Finland:

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2009/08/09STATE81957.html

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1. (S/NF) On the same week as the successful U.S.-Russia
Presidential Summit in Moscow, the United States and Russia
held their sixth Experts Meeting under their bilateral
Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS) Arrangement July
9-10 in Washington. Several items of interest were covered,
including: 1. a framework for the exchange of information on
domestic MANPADS destruction; 2. the risk of diversion of
MANPADS from Venezuela to the FARC; 3. illicit MANPADS
proliferation from Eritrea; 4. potential cooperation on
MANPADS destruction projects with other states; and 5. next
steps to facilitate the transfer of Russian-made Finnish
MANPADS to the U.S. for countermeasures testing. The Russian
side again requested U.S. help preventing the spread of
MANPADS in the Caucasus, in particular information on
Polish-supplied MANPADS to Georgia that were discovered in
Chechnya following the August 2008 conflict. In response to
our non-paper on the subject, the Russian MFA informed us it
had begun a dialogue with the Polish government. The next
Experts Meeting was tentatively scheduled for fall 2010 in
Moscow, at the earliest. The U.S. delegation was co-chaired
by Steven Costner (Deputy Director of PM/WRA) and Anita
Friedt (Director of EUR/PRA). The Russian delegation was
chaired by Col. Oleg Skabara from the MOD. See para 31 for a
full delegation list. End Summary.

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Reminds me of the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact of 1939:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov...ibbentrop_Pact

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On August 19, the 1939 German–Soviet Commercial Agreement was finally signed.[68] On 21 August the Soviets suspended Tripartite military talks, citing other reasons.[38][69] That same day, Stalin received assurance that Germany would approve secret protocols to the proposed non-aggression pact that would place half of Poland (border along the Vistula river), Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and Bessarabia in the Soviets' sphere of influence.[70] That night, Stalin replied that the Soviets were willing to sign the pact, and that he would receive Ribbentrop on 23 August.[71]

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Why do you people think you can receive stolen property and do what ever you want with it???

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There is this funny thing called:"Freedom of the Press", not to mention the "First Amendment" , but I guess the US Govt. thinks that these little details should not apply to an Australian citizen.

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Originally Posted by Eki

He didn't steal the info, he just publishes it. No one can call that spying. Spies don't publish their information. Spying equals secrecy, not publicity.

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THIS :up:

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

There is this funny thing called:"Freedom of the Press", not to mention the "First Amendment" , but I guess the US Govt. thinks that these little details should not apply to an Australian citizen.

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:up:
IMO the US govt thinks that the above amendments and rights should not be applied to anyone but themselves.

Valve, ioan and Eki hit the nails on the head.

The USA should be the last one to complain about the leaked information. At least the world is now able to see exactly how countries and politicians screw us on a daily basis. Some of the war crimes extracts are just plain sickening and hopefully something will be done about it to prevent them from happening agian. Only someone who has something to hide wants you to stay out of their laundry, and some countries have big laundry rooms they want to keep locked. Keep on nailing them Wiki.

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The US air force has blocked employees from accessing the websites of the Guardian, the New York Times and other news organisations carrying the WikiLeaks US embassy cables.

At least 25 sites that have posted WikiLeaks files had been barred, said Major Toni Tones of the US air force's space command in Colorado. Tones said the action was taken in accordance with a policy that "routinely blocks air force network access to websites hosting inappropriate materials".

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Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...s-us-air-force

The USA appears to be inching towards internet censorship. They can no longer take the moral high ground when dealing with the Great Firewall of China, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...s-us-air-force

The USA appears to be inching towards internet censorship. They can no longer take the moral high ground when dealing with the Great Firewall of China, I guess.

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Quite incredible.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Valve, ioan and Eki hit the nails on the head.

The USA should be the last one to complain about the leaked information. At least the world is now able to see exactly how countries and politicians screw us on a daily basis. Some of the war crimes extracts are just plain sickening and hopefully something will be done about it to prevent them from happening agian. Only someone who has something to hide wants you to stay out of their laundry, and some countries have big laundry rooms they want to keep locked. Keep on nailing them Wiki.

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There have been some fascinating opinions on this thread but much as I hate to admit it, Wikileaks has emerged as the governer on our governments.

There is little accountability of our leaders any more and if it wasn't for Wikileaks, we would be even more in the dark than we are now.

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Originally Posted by skc

There have been some fascinating opinions on this thread but much as I hate to admit it, Wikileaks has emerged as the governer on our governments.

There is little accountability of our leaders any more and if it wasn't for Wikileaks, we would be even more in the dark than we are now.

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Precisely. My concerns about it and its methods still stand, but surely this should be a wake-up call to governments the world over regarding the need to be far more open and honest, and far readier to bring previously classified material into the public domain sooner? Instead, it seems to be having the polar opposite effect, with ever more desperate attempts being made to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Anyone that doubts the value of wikileaks need to spend 17mins looking at the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

Nobody has been arrested apart from Bradley manning, the whistle blower, who is still incarcerated in Kuwait.

Truly sickening :(