Poll on who was at fault

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Originally Posted by markabilly

dont feel bad, i voted racing incident, but at least you have more fools with you, then I have among the other two with me.... :D

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Hey, I am one of those two. And you will address me as Mr Fool or you will have your eyes plucked out :p :

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Originally Posted by markabilly

THANKS

I Looked again and WHAT DOES IT SHOW??

WEBBER TURNING HIS WHEEL TOWARD VETTEL and then the contact. It also shows that unlike Vettel, Webber had full view of the placement of his car and Vettel, as once he is in front, he can not readily see to the side, not nearly as good as Webber.

This vid shows where vettel turns his wheel slightly towards Webber, then continues straight without contact or even having webber in the view of the camera, then turning his steering away from webber as the contact is made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elpTV...eature=related

it also shows that webber forced vettel unto the white line and then moved away as though conceding the pass........

the next video at the 8 second mark as Vettel passes, webber moves his steering wheel away from vettel as though moving over, but then stops it, holds it straight as the wheels are becoming interlocked, and then turns the steering into Vettel and then the contact occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMWc...eature=related

And at the 8 second mark, webber can clearly see, unlike Vettel, that the two wheels are becoming interlocked, and then right at the 9-10 second mark, he turns his steering wheel wheel into Seb, and at ten second mark to 11 second mark, the game is over, with tire smoke and all......


I take it all back when I gave ole chopper the benefit of the doubt and said racing incident.

The chopper chopped into the side of Vettel, by actually moving his steering wheel towards Vettel to ensure the contact, contact that Webber knew was likely to happen without any attempt at an evasive manuever...... :grenade:

So I take back my doubts and say:

Face guys, once again,
WEBBER IS A CHEATER CHOPPER , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE :rotflmao: :roll: :rotflmao:

and no amount of sales revenue for Red Cow, will ever change that

Here's to you, Mr. Henners, a toast of the good stuff....but not no red bull.... :beer:

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Billy, I can see the words on the screen - but it's all just noise.....

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Originally Posted by Ari

I've watched that video... you're on drugs.

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Probably a bad batch of Kool Aid....

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

This is very interesting because this was my original opinion. However, when I reviewed the situation in its entirety, I voted otherwise. But, thanks for the honesty in your views.

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And thanks for not accusing me of not wanting a poll....

I've never denied that Vettel shared a large part of the blame. I just don't feel that it's right for a driver who's behind to just hold their line if it means having an accident, especially with a team mate. If you believe that Webber is 0% to blame then this can only mean that you think Vettel intentionally crashed into Webber on purpose which is just unthinkable.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Hey, I am one of those two. And you will address me as Mr Fool or you will have your eyes plucked out :p :

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not much loss, as i already went blind-as others around here seem to think--but what they do not know is twas from "other activities" having not anything to do with kool aid, Mr Fool. :eek:

Such an backlash, demos well the love for their hero, chopper, versus that evil german austrian empire and its driver :vader:

And anyone who does not see webbers quick flick-moving the wheel towards Vettel--and back again--- of the steering wheel into vettel such that it ensures contact a micosecond later....well...... :laugh:

Now some might say, well now, that movement was from the contact, but at the point he moves his hands, there has been no contact and the contact would have forced his steering wheel the other way, as it was only partial contact with the racing surface of both tires, not a complete overlap

Perhaps Webber's intent was to bump the outside wheels together due to anger of being passed...but it was clearly deliberate


unlike others, when wrong, I have no problem admitting same....

Thanks Henners :up:

and speaking of evil empires, all those video links are now gone, thank you, F1 management

Must be conspiring with Mr. Chopper and red bull, to keep those red bull sales from plummenting to zero.... :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

And thanks for not accusing me of not wanting a poll....

I've never denied that Vettel shared a large part of the blame. I just don't feel that it's right for a driver who's behind to just hold their line if it means having an accident, especially with a team mate. If you believe that Webber is 0% to blame then this can only mean that you think Vettel intentionally crashed into Webber on purpose which is just unthinkable.

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It matters not whether Vettel intended the collision or not. I am sure it was a mistake, a misjudgement or merely a loss of control.

But.

He caused it, therefore the blame lies with him.

A racing incident, both were to blame - Vettel slightly more so, say 55-60%. I don't believe either driver deserves greater blame.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

and speaking of evil empires, all those video links are now gone, thank you, F1 management

Must be conspiring with Mr. Chopper and red bull, to keep those red bull sales from plummenting to zero.... :rotflmao:

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Red Bull drinks are liked by too many morons - the type you see vomiting in the street outside the local Whetherspoons pub on a Friday/Saturday night.

Sod the sports aspect, after all, there is lucozade for the serious sportsperson.

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Originally Posted by wedge

A racing incident, both were to blame - Vettel slightly more so, say 55-60%. I don't believe either driver deserves greater blame.

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No, Mark was rightly defending his lead. SOmething the leader is entitled to do.

Seb chose which side to attempt the pass.

Mark kept the line tight, but did not squeeze Seb.

Seb did the squeezing, as he knew the pass would only stick if he could brake.

Now, the videos tell us that there was an immense amount of dust kicked up br Seb's tyres, he will have been seriously compromised in the braking zone due to dirty tyres.

I seriously doubt his ability to outbrake Mark.

Mark knew that.

Which is why he positioned his car as he did - Enough room for Seb, but no more.

Even Mark's team understand this now.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Red Bull drinks are liked by too many morons - the type you see vomiting in the street outside the local Whetherspoons pub on a Friday/Saturday night.

Sod the sports aspect, after all, there is lucozade for the serious sportsperson.

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i try to avoid viewing such special, intimate moments, even when on Utube

and i can not stand that stuff, only kool aid for me

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In another thread AndyL made this point:

It's a good point.

Mark Webber is a skillful racing driver. He obviously didn't want to lose the lead, but if he had to then Vettel was going to have to work hard to earn it.

By positioning his car where he did out of the previous turn Webber gave Vettel two options - inside or outside pass. Vettel, knowing a left-hander was coming up, chose inside. It was the risky option because it put him on the dirty line. His tyres would pick up the dirt and so make it more difficult to complete the pass and make the next corner cleanly.

Webber knew all of this. Vettel had chosen the option that gave Webber the best chance of regaining the position, and Vettel knew this too.

So, with Vettel slightly ahead of Webber before either of them had reached the braking zone what could have happened? Well, my guess is that Webber would have moved across to the right entering the braking zone, thus positioning himself to take the ideal line through the next corner. Vettel, by that point, would have been ahead but with dirty tyres and off the ideal line. It may have been a bit of a scramble but Vettel probably would have emerged from the left-hander ahead.
Vettel's actions, not Webber's, ensured things didn't work out this way.

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my thought would be the smart move would be to move over, let vettel go a head, cut down behind Vettel
and move to the inside as vettel was going to have a tough time sticking into the racing line and making the corner at that speed, and if not that corner, then the next

and when your front wheels are about to touch the rear wheels of another car, that does not mean, that the other car is "slightly ahead"

[quote="SGWilko"]No, Mark was rightly defending his lead. SOmething the leader is entitled to do.
Mark knew that.
[quote]

Seb was leading going into the corner .

Hamilton. He was making Vettel nervous.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Seb was leading going into the corner .

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They were nowhere near the corner, Seb was still completing - but had not completed - the move.

He could not therefore have been leading going into the corner.

It's like trying to overtake on the final straight at Canada, you can get a run on the guy in front on the outside, but if you are not far enough ahead of him, you'll end up over the kurbs and into the wall. You have to own the corner - Seb didn't.

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Originally Posted by eu

Hamilton. He was making Vettel nervous.

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What, more so than the first 40 or so laps?

Poppycock.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Poppycock.

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I don't know what poppycock is but sounds well-suited for my post :laugh:

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Originally Posted by eu

I don't know what poppycock is but sounds well-suited for my post :laugh:

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Poppycock, cobblers, cockermeemie - all words for rubbish!

It's a non offensive method of saying b0ll0cks. ;)

watch carefully, and you will see the slight movement to to the left via webber's steering wheel where he closes the gap prior to the contact. It is in only one of the last two frames:

http://gickr.com/results4/anim_679fb...c0ce8cce89.gif

inthis one as the tires touch one can see webber turning slightly away but too late--note the smoke starting from the contact as well as the damaged rim protruding from the tire
http://gyazo.com/f916a4127c804c7fe46e328bfef81d41.png

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Originally Posted by markabilly

watch carefully, and you will see the slight movement to to the left via webber's steering wheel where he closes the gap prior to the contact. It is in only one of the last two frames:

http://gickr.com/results4/anim_679fb...c0ce8cce89.gif

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Perhaps we could have the same from Vettels cockpit.....

and on the white line as the front wheels begin to pass each other--and note the slight movement of Vettel towards webber in the steering as webber is actually moving over very slightly, there is no contact or interlocked wheels, then webber stops moving over and then flicks the wheel towards Vettel, then contact---had webber continued moving over, there would have been no accident:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/...c589cd7b_b.jpg

At first I thought it was Vettel's fault, but looking at it again, Webber should have gien way and preserved a team 1-2 rather than put both of them at risk of going off. It was a bold move by Vettel, but Webber defended too hard.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

and on the white line as the front wheels begin to pass each other:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/...c589cd7b_b.jpg

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On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

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Originally Posted by JimClarkFan

At first I thought it was Vettel's fault, but looking at it again, Webber should have gien way and preserved a team 1-2 rather than put both of them at risk of going off. It was a bold move by Vettel, but Webber defended too hard.

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You cannot forcibly barge another car out the way. F1 is non contact - or it is supposed to be at least.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

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I pointed that out.
Earlier vettel had his front wheel much farther over on the white line, and then both started moving to the right, very slightly, with an almost constant gap until webber STOPS giving room, holds it straight for about a second, gives it the flick to the left, then straight again as contact was made.

In this photo, Vettel already going to the right and there is no contact until a few feet over to the right, after webber stops moving and gives it the flick to the left.

If webber was holding a straight line, the accident would have happened immediately before this photo--instead it happens a few seconds later, when webber changed his line from moving to the right, to going straight, to giving it the flick to the left

I can't help but post despite trying not to get drawn into this.

Unfortunately the clips themselves have now been removed from YouTube so I can't watch them again and will just refer to on-board shots in general.

When watching from the on-board camera it is usual to see slight movement of the steering wheel left and right even when the car is travelling in an apparent straight line. So if you do take a snap-shot frame of EITHER car, the steering wheel may well be tilted one way or the other but, as it is a single frame, doesn't really indicate much since there is no clue of time or what happened a split second before and after.

From actually watching it, Vettel steered towards Webber in a bid to give himself a better line into the next corner. From that I think that it is fair to say that Vettel caused the accident - not because he was attempting to pass but because as he edged in front he started moving over.

From the point of view of avoiding the accident (which is different from causing it) they can share equal blame. As both Vettel and Webber could have avoided it. Vettel, of course, should have not steered into his team mate but, since he did, Webber could have moved out of his way. Racing drivers have to walk a narrow line between standing their ground and avoiding accidents and that is up to them and their employers which is why I said could rather than should there.

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"Mark had requested the lap before to ask Sebastian to back off a bit. There was no way you could do that because of the McLarens being right there."

Horner acknowledged that Vettel had the faster pace at the time of the incident.

"It looked like Mark started to struggle with the rear tyres a bit more - that's what it looked like on the pit wall," said Horner. "And Sebastian, between laps 38 and 39, really closed up rapidly to the back of Mark, obviously got a run on him on lap 40 and they both found themselves in a situation they didn't want to be in."

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]http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Interestingly Autosport reports that Webber had on a previous lap radioed the team and asked them to tell Vettel to hold station (or slow down). With two McLarens not far behind them I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that maybe the team can share some of the blame, for not managing their drivers well enough as this situation brewed. I'm not suggesting team orders. If Webber was slowing and Vettel was stuck behind with a looming Hamilton the 1-2 would have been getting fragile...

The likelihood is that both drivers would approach it different if they could go back and try it again.

Before reviewing the data, Redbull was blaming Webber.

After reviewing the data, Redbull (after public apology to Webber) says that it's a racing incident.

I guess Redbull couldn't find Webber's 'flick to the left' either.

Conclusion: Just like St. Devote having better data than Bridgestone, Markabilly has better data than Redbull.

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Originally Posted by JimClarkFan

At first I thought it was Vettel's fault, but looking at it again, Webber should have gien way and preserved a team 1-2 rather than put both of them at risk of going off. It was a bold move by Vettel, but Webber defended too hard.

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Or maybe Vettel should have preserved a team 1-2, instead of acting like a spoiled brat and expecting his teammate of acting like his slave?

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Originally Posted by nitromaster

From the point of view of avoiding the accident (which is different from causing it) they can share equal blame. As both Vettel and Webber could have avoided it. Vettel, of course, should have not steered into his team mate but, since he did, Webber could have moved out of his way. Racing drivers have to walk a narrow line between standing their ground and avoiding accidents and that is up to them and their employers which is why I said could rather than should there.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

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That's exactly the point. It takes two to tango and although Seb stepped on Mark's toes, Mark could see what was going to happen and kept his toes out.....

But anyway I should stfu lest someone accuse me of trying to stifle their freedom of speach :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

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It's impossible to say, the camera isn't straight on, as you can see from the aerials on the nosecones of the Red Bull's.

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Originally Posted by Firstgear

Conclusion: Just like St. Devote having better data than Bridgestone, Markabilly has better data than Redbull.

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I notice our esteemed colleague is on "holiday"

<Default Anglo Forum Member Setting ON>

The German is to blame

<Default Anglo Forum Member Setting OFF>

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

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Check billy's sequenced shots and you'll see Webber's trajectory is toward the line .
Had Vettel kept it straight , he was off track .

In the sequence , we also see the first braking distance marker in view on the right , just as the contact occurs .

Webber had him to the line .
To keep him there to long , with Seb on the dirt inside , was just asking for trouble .
He was already past . There was no point in keeping him that tight that they would lock wheels .

This wasn't a lunge down the inside just before the corner .
Webber conceded that he lost the position and made a conscious choice to make it as hard as he could for Vettel .
That was the way he characterized it .
The pass was made before they got to that brake marker .

The way Hammy and Bunbun diced looked like when they made the moves , they had the intention to pass and repass , rather than make it hard for each other .
They showed respect for each others' abilities .
It was great to see .

It seems to me that the two Mac drivers are revved by the team-mate competition , and the Bull boys are rattled by it .

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

On the line, just, but not off the track. He had the room.

Look at the angle of Seb's steering wheel. That's not straight, is it?

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You would **** (I used the *'s ) yourself if I pushed you so close to the white line on a motorway at 100mph but you think it was so easy to go into braking zone at almost 200 mph and you call that enough room for racing. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sonic

Oh and BTW Nationality has bugger all to do with it.

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You're being naive now.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're being naive now.

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vettel starting to copy schumacher

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If you believe that Webber is 0% to blame then this can only mean that you think Vettel intentionally crashed into Webber on purpose which is just unthinkable.

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I think that Webber is 0% to blame, and I've never thought Vettel made contact intentionally. It could have been brain fade, it could have been he thought he was clear, or it could have been that he thought Mark would move at the last split second.

People keep arguing that the pass was made, and I disagree with that. Had Vettel completed the pass he could have chopped right hard and got back on the racing line, and no contact would have taken place. In reality the pass was about 1/2 made, and he didn't finish it.




As for the Webber "flick to the left" I can't see it on any video. And I can watch the Webber in car shot on my DVR frame by frame.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Check billy's sequenced shots and you'll see Webber's trajectory is toward the line .
Had Vettel kept it straight , he was off track .

In the sequence , we also see the first braking distance marker in view on the right , just as the contact occurs .

Webber had him to the line .
To keep him there to long , with Seb on the dirt inside , was just asking for trouble .
He was already past . There was no point in keeping him that tight that they would lock wheels .

This wasn't a lunge down the inside just before the corner .
Webber conceded that he lost the position and made a conscious choice to make it as hard as he could for Vettel .
That was the way he characterized it .
The pass was made before they got to that brake marker .

The way Hammy and Bunbun diced looked like when they made the moves , they had the intention to pass and repass , rather than make it hard for each other .
They showed respect for each others' abilities .
It was great to see .

It seems to me that the two Mac drivers are revved by the team-mate competition , and the Bull boys are rattled by it .

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Your analysis does not appear to be supported by the photos at post #92

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Originally Posted by nitromaster

I can't help but post despite trying not to get drawn into this.

Unfortunately the clips themselves have now been removed from YouTube so I can't watch them again and will just refer to on-board shots in general.

When watching from the on-board camera it is usual to see slight movement of the steering wheel left and right even when the car is travelling in an apparent straight line. So if you do take a snap-shot frame of EITHER car, the steering wheel may well be tilted one way or the other but, as it is a single frame, doesn't really indicate much since there is no clue of time or what happened a split second before and after.

From actually watching it, Vettel steered towards Webber in a bid to give himself a better line into the next corner. From that I think that it is fair to say that Vettel caused the accident - not because he was attempting to pass but because as he edged in front he started moving over.

From the point of view of avoiding the accident (which is different from causing it) they can share equal blame. As both Vettel and Webber could have avoided it. Vettel, of course, should have not steered into his team mate but, since he did, Webber could have moved out of his way. Racing drivers have to walk a narrow line between standing their ground and avoiding accidents and that is up to them and their employers which is why I said could rather than should there.


]http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Interestingly Autosport reports that Webber had on a previous lap radioed the team and asked them to tell Vettel to hold station (or slow down). With two McLarens not far behind them I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that maybe the team can share some of the blame, for not managing their drivers well enough as this situation brewed. I'm not suggesting team orders. If Webber was slowing and Vettel was stuck behind with a looming Hamilton the 1-2 would have been getting fragile...

The likelihood is that both drivers would approach it different if they could go back and try it again.

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This post is just about spot on!