Hamilton's Driving

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Originally Posted by Volky34

We can clearly see that Lewis overtakes Vettel by taking a racing line outside the white pit-entry lines. I thought drivers should be inside the white lines in the pit entry.

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hehe you should have heard Spanish TV and the Spanish chats...
until Alonso did the same a bit later on :D

Funnily enough English TV only appears to have moaned about Alonso ;) :p

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Actually, I think it vill.

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So, then we will see.

Hamilton will be an unstoppable force with the right team only WHEN he stops doing really stupid acts that could and have wrecked him. He is lousy when it comes to tire management (look at how Jenson has two wins this year and tire management was a factor in both) and he doesn't know when to pull his horns in and apply a little guile and patience.

That said, No one on the charge is as fun to watch as Lewis. The only complaints I have is his braindead acts such as racing side by side in and out of the pits. Dumb.....because if the stewards were on the ball, they should have punished him for pit lane violations. I am thinking if he isn't Lewis Hamilton, there is a penalty applied. I guess racing Vettel side by side in pit lane with people standing there isn't a problem until they touch wheels one day and a guy gets launched into someone's pit box with the crew standing there. Dumb....

Lewis when he gets a year or two more schooling will be as good as anyone in recent history...

Indeed, he is still learning.

Now he is going to learn how to drive, that is in the Jenson style.

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Originally Posted by Volky34

I really need to know something!!!! If you watch Ari's video of the pitlane incident, you will see the pit lane entry beginning at 1:20!!!

We can clearly see that Lewis overtakes Vettel by taking a racing line outside the white pit-entry lines. I thought drivers should be inside the white lines in the pit entry. Am I wrong or are we witnessing the slaughter of the rules by the FIA???

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This was my question regarding the entry, and I agree.

In past races, if a driver gains advantage by passing when outside the lines of the track, they must give back the postion. It's possible that they ignored that issue since Vettel got him on the way out. BUT Alonso was not forced to yield position to Massa, and he did the same thing.

It seems that the stewards have gone from looking at every action with a microscope (the last few years) to turning a blind eye to everything this year. I'm not sure that the drivers would get away so easily if they had the same enforcement that ALMS has. ALMS seems to have the best stewarding I have seen - swift and consistent.

I dunno, I am so happy that they allow the drivers to race, since I was little kid it seemed that racing audacity was always penalized. IMO their decisions this year was all right.

I love his driving. Good for us, bad for him. The perfect combo.

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .


Similarly , when chased by a "lowly" rookie in a "lowly" yellow car last race , he swerved wildly , prompting clarification of the swerve rules .


Lewis seems to live in the moment , and if , in that moment , a crisis occurs that can tarnish his self-image , he cannot be trusted to make a decision that isn't wholly about repair .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .


Similarly , when chased by a "lowly" rookie in a "lowly" yellow car last race , he swerved wildly , prompting clarification of the swerve rules .


Lewis seems to live in the moment , and if , in that moment , a crisis occurs that can tarnish his self-image , he cannot be trusted to make a decision that isn't wholly about repair .

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A very good post.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .


Similarly , when chased by a "lowly" rookie in a "lowly" yellow car last race , he swerved wildly , prompting clarification of the swerve rules .


Lewis seems to live in the moment , and if , in that moment , a crisis occurs that can tarnish his self-image , he cannot be trusted to make a decision that isn't wholly about repair .

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Post of the season.

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Originally Posted by henners88

You forgot to put in that he's a liar, a cheat, with a distasteful personality, and I think you'd have yourself a pretty unbiased, impartial post worthy of respect on this forum.. Its endorsements speak for themselves. :laugh: :p

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Thank you , Mia and Tamburello .

Those traits were irrelevent to this discussion , henners , and would only incite argument .

I do respect your boy for being a good driver . He's as good as any out there as far as race craft goes , but he doesn't seem to handle pressure well .




Please , pardon me for saying so , but I don't think you do , either .

It's only my opinion of a race car driver . No big dealie .

What I am really impressed by Button in comparison to Hamilton is he outqualified Hamilton in China. Since in race terms, there have been 3 rainy ones and that shouldn't count as a valid measure.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Thank you , Mia and Tamburello .

Those traits were irrelevent to this discussion , henners , and would only incite argument .

I do respect your boy for being a good driver . He's as good as any out there as far as race craft goes , but he doesn't seem to handle pressure well .




Please , pardon me for saying so , but I don't think you do , either .

It's only my opinion of a race car driver . No big dealie .

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One moore of thoose good posts.

When the Red Mist hits, as it will a couple of times each races, Lewis again, theres moore pain than brain.

I originally started this thread because I didn't like what I saw in the race. But after the stewards' ruling on this, Hamilton is right to have done what he did. Vettel too.

No real penalty, so that means you can now race for position in the pitlane. What if Button and Alonso do it in the next race? Should they get a reprimand too?

I think the stewards have messed up again.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Post of the season.

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Make your mind up - I think we have had at least one other - post of the year/season from you.

Maybe you are indecisive, or perhaps you are just not sure???

Perhaps you should publish post league tables.... :laugh:

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Originally Posted by fandango

I originally started this thread because I didn't like what I saw in the race. But after the stewards' ruling on this, Hamilton is right to have done what he did. Vettel too.

No real penalty, so that means you can now race for position in the pitlane. What if Button and Alonso do it in the next race? Should they get a reprimand too?

I think the stewards have messed up again.

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Errr, wise up. There were cicumstances to be considered here.

How would the Stewards act if two cars happened to be side by side again, but one driver left room for the other, so they were side by side AND within the lines? They ought to be travelling at the same speed after all, so no advantage to be gained.

If the exact same circumstances happen again as happened in China, with the same two drivers or not, I rightly expect DSQ's to be handed out to both of them.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Errr, wise up. There were cicumstances to be considered here.

How would the Stewards act if two cars happened to be side by side again, but one driver left room for the other, so they were side by side AND within the lines? They ought to be travelling at the same speed after all, so no advantage to be gained.

If the exact same circumstances happen again as happened in China, with the same two drivers or not, I rightly expect DSQ's to be handed out to both of them.

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In that case, they would be receiving a different punishment for the same offence, wouldn't they? And why a disqualification? Why not a stop-go, or a drive-through?

Alonso correctly got a drive-through for jumping the start in China. So if, for example, another driver jumpstarts in Barcelona, what punishment should they get? Obviously, it should be a drive-through because that is the established sanction. But bear with me, here.

If it was Hamilton, and he was disqualified, then everyone would be up in arms about it. But of course the stewards could justify themselves by saying that he had already got a warning and a reprimand in the previous races. (That would keep us going on here for months)

The point I'm trying to make is that it's important that each time the rules are broken, the sanction must be consistent. And the stewards have left things open to improvisation, again.

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Originally Posted by fandango

In that case, they would be receiving a different punishment for the same offence, wouldn't they? And why a disqualification? Why not a stop-go, or a drive-through?

Alonso correctly got a drive-through for jumping the start in China. So if, for example, another driver jumpstarts in Barcelona, what punishment should they get? Obviously, it should be a drive-through because that is the established sanction. But bear with me, here.

If it was Hamilton, and he was disqualified, then everyone would be up in arms about it. But of course the stewards could justify themselves by saying that he had already got a warning and a reprimand in the previous races. (That would keep us going on here for months)

The point I'm trying to make is that it's important that each time the rules are broken, the sanction must be consistent. And the stewards have left things open to improvisation, again.

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No, because now the Stewards have set the precedent, and no doubt it will be made crystal clear in the next briefing. WHat I can tell you is that Vettel wont be turning towards the garages again, and Lewis wont be straddling the blue line again.

There is also benefit of the doubt in certain situations. The circumstances as to how Lewis and Vettel were side by side were unusual, and taken into account.

A jump start is a jump start - there is no ambiguity.

If Lewis weaves again for example, I would expect more than a reprimand, wouldn't you? Maybe a stop go? ANd if he does it again, grid drop? ANd again, race bans.....

I think a little logic has to be applied. As has been pointed out before, we want to see racing and races decided on the track, not 3 hours after it has finished.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I want to know more about this red mist Lewis suffers from. Can we see it through the visor? Is it possible others can suffer from it too? Kubica, Vettel, Schumacher, Alonso have all been erratic in the past on track, but is this a different diagnosis in their circumstances?

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The red mist is a phenomenon borne of eating too many red coloured foods. What happens is, in the nomex romper race suit, a 'love puff' has nowhere to escape but up, and out through the visor. In the case of the red food addict, this results in a red hue.......

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Originally Posted by henners88

A fair analysis :up: .

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...is a study on travelling entertainment providers....

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Originally Posted by henners88

So its basically different and the total opposite to the "Purple Haze" I suffered from when I was at University? Got ya. :s mokin:

FIN.

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No silly, you are describing a song by Prince, or AFKAP as he, she, him, it was once monikered.......

Oh, no, that was rain. Blast! ;)

END

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

No, because now the Stewards have set the precedent, and no doubt it will be made crystal clear in the next briefing. WHat I can tell you is that Vettel wont be turning towards the garages again, and Lewis wont be straddling the blue line again.

There is also benefit of the doubt in certain situations. The circumstances as to how Lewis and Vettel were side by side were unusual, and taken into account.

A jump start is a jump start - there is no ambiguity.

If Lewis weaves again for example, I would expect more than a reprimand, wouldn't you? Maybe a stop go? ANd if he does it again, grid drop? ANd again, race bans.....

I think a little logic has to be applied. As has been pointed out before, we want to see racing and races decided on the track, not 3 hours after it has finished.

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I don't think what you are saying is consistent. When Hamilton weaved in front of Petrov, then surely, according to your logic, he should have been penalised with more than a warning, because a precedent to THAT incident had indeed been set. Everyone could see what he did was not within the rules, it's been done before, and there are even probably examples of drivers actually being punished for less. That's why we know it's not legal. But it hasn't happened recently, so he only gets a warning.

So, imagine if the Hamilton Vettel incident is not repeated in Spain in two weeks, but does happen again in two years time in Silverstone.

I think it makes sense that the jump start is punished as it is. It makes sense that overtaking under a yellow flag is punishable as it is. But in this ruling, the stewards are effectively saying that running down the pitlane side by side is less serious than overtaking under a yellow.

They should at least tell everyone what will happen to any driver who does that again in future - something immediate, like a drive-through, during the race. If they don't, they risk leaving things open to interpretation on the day, and opening themselves to accusations of favouritism.

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Originally Posted by fandango

I don't think what you are saying is consistent.

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You've spoken to my wife then..... :laugh:

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Originally Posted by fandango

When Hamilton weaved in front of Petrov, then surely, according to your logic, he should have been penalised with more than a warning, because a precedent to THAT incident had indeed been set. Everyone could see what he did was not within the rules, it's been done before, and there are even probably examples of drivers actually being punished for less. That's why we know it's not legal. But it hasn't happened recently, so he only gets a warning.

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Difference being it was not defence of an overtake, it was to prevent a move being planned by breaking the tow.

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Originally Posted by fandango

So, imagine if the Hamilton Vettel incident is not repeated in Spain in two weeks, but does happen again in two years time in Silverstone.

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Same will apply if it is a second offence......

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Originally Posted by fandango

I think it makes sense that the jump start is punished as it is. It makes sense that overtaking under a yellow flag is punishable as it is. But in this ruling, the stewards are effectively saying that running down the pitlane side by side is less serious than overtaking under a yellow.

They should at least tell everyone what will happen to any driver who does that again in future - something immediate, like a drive-through, during the race. If they don't, they risk leaving things open to interpretation on the day, and opening themselves to accusations of favouritism.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

No silly, you are describing a song by Prince, or AFKAP as he, she, him, it was once monikered.......

Oh, no, that was rain. Blast! ;)

END

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You fool.

It was a Deep Purple Smoke on the water left by all the Purple Rain!

Anyway, back to the thread and the thrilling post from a few purple heads.

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Originally Posted by fandango

But in this ruling, the stewards are effectively saying that running down the pitlane side by side is less serious than overtaking under a yellow.

They should at least tell everyone what will happen to any driver who does that again in future - something immediate, like a drive-through, during the race. If they don't, they risk leaving things open to interpretation on the day, and opening themselves to accusations of favouritism.

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Consider first the chances of the Vettel/Lewis incident being repeated in the same way.....

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Originally Posted by skc

You fool.

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Yikes

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Yikes

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I'm sorry, it was supposed to be a joke. Perhaps i should use a :)

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Originally Posted by skc

I'm sorry, it was supposed to be a joke. Perhaps i should use a :)

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Hey, no need to apologise - I took it as a joke.

If I was offended, my post would have been long rambling and grumpy.... :)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Lewis had wheelspin , and knew he was beaten .

But , he didn't give up .

This prompted Vettel to move in , to emphasize his right to the lane .
He was fully in the lane before Hamilton , and beside him .

That race was over , as no F-duct was going to get him down the lane any faster than the limitter would allow .



Lewis has a serious problem with the red mist , where he tends towards the "deliberate , but instinctual " moves , in times of crisis .
His racing down the blue lane prompted Sebastian to assert his right . Whether this reaction was clever or not should be looked at in the light of what his rival was up to .

My initial reaction was to say "Give up , you idiot . He beat you into the lane ." .
Upon rewatching the video , I remain with the view that Lewis lost the plot in the incident .
He was never going to win a race on a limitter .

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.....and Vettel didn't lose the plot?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Hamilton's action (and yes, I think he was an idiot for trying to keep the position alongside Vettel after making a mess of his getaway from the pit, losing traction and getting sideways), but since when has it been Vettel's right or responsibility to police that by pushing Hamilton back towards the pit garages?

To put it another way, if someone on the road tries to overtake me illegally, and it ends in an accident, then I don't expect to get much sympathy from the traffic cops if they find out my last act before the accident was to move over on the guy who was trying to overtake me....

All Vettel needed to do was sit tight and hold his line- and Hamilton would have had to back out of it before the end of the pitlane- but he didn't, he tried to force the issue, and rightly got reprimanded

As far as I'm concerned, they're both at fault here, and I'd have been perfectly comfortable to see both get a drive-through for it

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Consider first the chances of the Vettel/Lewis incident being repeated in the same way.....

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With pitstops as short as they are this year, and changeable weather, surely it's only a matter of time.

By the second half of the season, when the pit crews are well practiced, in Spa for example. Imagine two, three or even four lollipops being raised at the same time....

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

No silly, you are describing a song by Prince, or AFKAP as he, she, him, it was once monikered.......

Oh, no, that was rain. Blast! ;)

END

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Purple Haze?

Hendrix, surely....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_i5Ca1FYko

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Originally Posted by fandango

With pitstops as short as they are this year, and changeable weather, surely it's only a matter of time.

By the second half of the season, when the pit crews are well practiced, in Spa for example. Imagine two, three or even four lollipops being raised at the same time....

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Yep, by mid-season I wouldn't be surprised to have seen a few similar scenarios play out- especially if we get some more wet races....

I'd tend to agree with you about the drivethrough

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Originally Posted by Rover V8

.....and Vettel didn't lose the plot?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Hamilton's action (and yes, I think he was an idiot for trying to keep the position alongside Vettel after making a mess of his getaway from the pit, losing traction and getting sideways), but since when has it been Vettel's right or responsibility to police that by pushing Hamilton back towards the pit garages?

To put it another way, if someone on the road tries to overtake me illegally, and it ends in an accident, then I don't expect to get much sympathy from the traffic cops if they find out my last act before the accident was to move over on the guy who was trying to overtake me....

All Vettel needed to do was sit tight and hold his line- and Hamilton would have had to back out of it before the end of the pitlane- but he didn't, he tried to force the issue, and rightly got reprimanded

As far as I'm concerned, they're both at fault here, and I'd have been perfectly comfortable to see both get a drive-through for it

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I'd have been comfortable with a drive-through for Vettel and a 10second stop for Hamilton .
Either way , I saw it as dangerous , and something that should never be allowed again .

Severe sanction should ensue , though , once this is clarified and hopefully regulated , if anyone tries this again .

Well, I guess everybody has his opinion and can curse or praise the stewards. I prefer their new way compared to what we had in previous years.

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

Some of his moves might be questionable but F1 is better with him.

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Originally Posted by race_director

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

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I think you need to know the difference between F1 and The Classical Music as Max Biaggi put it. .

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Originally Posted by race_director

i have been wondering for a long time now, from the day i saw him in 2007 i feel he is a very dangerous driver, i think he is a bit unstable and need some time of medication.


i think f1 is better of without him . my real fear is that , if we allow him to race we could see some fatal injuries to fellow drivers, i think he needs a rehab or a crash course on f1.


he is not fit for f1 as of now, with his cheating and all his dangerous driving.

I think he need to attend school again and learn the basics of sportmanship all over again.

best of luck to other drivers. i would hold RONN accountable for any fatalities cuz of his spoilt kid on the track.


regardless of how much his supporters cry. there is proven data to prove that he is a danger to the whole paddock .



i think he needs atleast 3-4 years more to mature into a great drive.
he is simply dangerous for other 23 cars on field, and i fear that his driving can lead to some serious problems in the future.

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OK, you've said your opinion, which is fair enough. I totally disagree with you, and I can't see how he's a danger (he's a racer-I don't see that as being dangerous). Occasioanlly hot headed for sure, you could say he's spoilt but only because he was good enough to be IMO.

But, You claim there is proven data supporting what you say and thus proving me wrong, now show me that.

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Originally Posted by Donney

Some of his moves might be questionable but F1 is better with him.

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I agree completely.