Big thumbs up to Alonso, indeed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ent
Don't think anyone has criticized him here, though, so I don't really get what your point is here.
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Big thumbs up to Alonso, indeed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ent
Don't think anyone has criticized him here, though, so I don't really get what your point is here.
I could see why people would've had a beef with what Senna did in the 80's, because many liked how F1 was before Senna. Hell, some found driving defensively detestible in the 1930's, as it held up faster cars. See the 1937 Italian Grand Prix - Rosemeyer didn't like Caracciola driving in such a way as to make passing difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
I think it's okay, yes. Webber cut it fine, and I am sure he didn't intend for Alonso to get a wheel on the grass.
Neither can I...I though we wanted racing people. This is racing!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbsy
I think the Senna one was strange at the time because it was so rare.
We had a lot of blocking from Schumy when he would swerve left and right with gay abandon. Then the FIA was forced to bring in the infamouse "1 change of direction" rule which is what Webber did.
I cannot see anything wrong with the move and think both drivers were committed.
The point being that lap after lap, cars who have another car right on their tail on the main straight move to the right to defend their line. In that respect this case was no different. Normally the following car would then try to dart down the outside and try and take the position around the outside of the first corner. The only thing that made this move different was Alonso didn't do the expect thing and drove sheer around the inside of Webber, using all of the track and a little more.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
The reason why the move looked so spectacular was due to Alonso's bravery and great driving. People seem so hung up on "blocking" that never happened, that they are undervaluing Alonso's role in all of this.
The way I see it is this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ent
If you divide the entry to the first corner into three racing lines - the outside, the middle and the inside - then I would have had no problem whatsoever if Webber had moved to the middle, leaving Alonso a choice of either outside or inside. If you go back to your own photo, you see that this is what initially happens. Webber moves to the middle, and Alonso - perhaps indeed, as you suggest, to Webber's surprise - chose the inside line, not the outside. If they had come like this into the first corner - side by side -, Webber would still have had an advantage, because the inside line is dirty and Alonso would have had to brake earlier anyway, because the corner would have been way tighter for him.
What happened instead?
Webber moved from the middle to the inside, pushing Alonso - who was alongside - to the grass. Why? Because Webber realized that they were not going to come side by side to the corner. Alonso would have been significantly ahead. So his only choice, at that point, to keep position was to push him out - get him to lift off. And that's what he tried. And this, in my opinion, is anything but fair racing. It's bullying. "Lift off or else."
Well, Alonso didn't lift, and snaked through anyway. Super! And Webber then got the corner anyway, by outbraking Alonso, which was also super.
But that doesn't change my opinion that Webber's initial move was unfair, unsporting.
Do you agree it was exciting, and F1 needs more of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
Haven't I made it clear that I really dislike that sort of thing? :) No, I don't think F1 needs that. Exciting in a perverse way though it may be. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by big_sw2000
If I am honest, I think you are digging a hole....Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
....and it keeps getting bigger.
It was a case of Webber moving to protect his position. Alonso had committed to take the pit side of the track, and was darn sure he was going to make it stick.
I think this is a clear case of no case to answer.
There were only inches to spare , but Mark left him just enough room .
Fernando was committed , knowing Mark would relent if he was along side .
Classic gun fight .
Inches farther , and Mark would have been a real dick , as Fernando would have been even farther onto the grass .
Being on the grass was Fernando's idea , obvious from the screen shot of Fernando there gardening , because there is enough room to have his wheels on the white line , with Mark where he was .
He was very close to the dangerous line , but within the limits of how hard you can expect a competitor to race .
Some have given props to Alonso for being brave , and well deserved , but Mark should also be given his , because he raced hard but fair .
They both had to trust each other completely , and expect each other to race to the limit , but not over .
All in all , a beautiful pass , hard won .
I'm pretty sure Alonso had KERS. They said it on the BBC broadcast. Both DC and Brundle mentioned it.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
If you can find me proof then I'll entertain the idea ;)Quote:
Well, a lot of other people certainly found fault with it. Real experts, too.
Alonso could have gone to the left could he not?Quote:
Ah. So he veered to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?
Yes, I also just read that he did. Nevertheless, Webber knew he had it, didn't he.. Not that it matters much to the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by woody2goody
You want proof that Senna was/is widely condemned for Estoril '88?? My dear fellow, do some reading. ;) The proof is... everywhere! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by woody2goody
Yes. I was needlessly sarcastic towards you regarding that point. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by woody2goody
As to the squeezing, I disagree. But I guess that's pretty clear by now. :)
Yes, I guess you're right. :) But then, when has a forum debate ever ended with one side putting their hands up and saying, "You're right, we were wrong." :) We argue for the sake of arguing. It's pointless, but it's fun. :) And positions which start out as something vague based on emotions end up being much clearer and, hopefully, reasoned. Which is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
But yes. The well does seem to be somewhat exhausted now. I for one don't have anything significant to add to what I've already written. So...
I still thought you meant the Webber incident. My bad :DQuote:
Originally Posted by studiose
I'm still surprised Senna was so criticised for his manoeuvre.
M Schumacher. Twice in the same race in 2005!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ent
Hehe, thanks! I must admit it did feel very lonely at one point, and I almost caved at one time, at around post #66. But then much-needed reinforcements arrived in the form of Markabilly and especially Fousto, and after that it was much easier. :) -> :D -> :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Oh dear God, we must find something better to do with our time! :laugh:
I have to say, though, that never did I think I was trolling, as Ent suggested. I really don't like what Webber did. I know it's not a popular opinion, but it's mine. ;)
I understand studiose's reasoning well and it has fair arguments. But I think the reason, why people aren't "against" that move is that Webber realized his 'mistake' quickly and moved quickly back to left. And secondly we didn't have any dramas due to that move - Alonso managed to complete his manouvre properly. It was different with Schumacher vs Frentzen at Montreal in '98 for example. Schumacher didn't leave enough room for Frentzen on the track and HHF spun off as a result - hence everyone was furious. Consequences are what tend to make up people's minds.
FFS, Webber moved first, as shown clearly in the screen grabs posted further back there was no blocking.
Alonso just decided to overtake regardless, and did so brilliantly.
Yes i agree, its gone to far know, ive been getting very argumentive, sorry to any one i offended (Studiose). But its 2 diffrent views, which we will stick with to the death. So there. WE ARE ALL RIGHT. I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
Of course. ;) No complaints at all! It was spirited, but it never got nasty. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by big_sw2000
Great move by Webber, he defended his position really hard, but it was a very fair move.
I really dont understand the bitching.
What bitching, no bitching here, we are all friends now :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
some of you are going to far it will blow up in your face
i will make sure of it
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/1...n-rules-video/
now show me the lewis thread for this one
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6rp0t
your kidding right?
did you see lewis turn his wheel to cut off the road
or did you see webber come up to be side by side then turn "his wheel" into hamilton before correcting
come on now
a better example was the hamilton glock incident that same race which i do think was rather borderline by Hamilton
The question whether the move is legal or not will leave someone "dead" right if they keep on.
Guess 150 posts, time for me to join the fun...
How people can defend the in-defense able always amazes me. How can anybody suggest it wasn't a dirty move? where was Webber going, to get a better view of a fan or something? maybe there is a Tim Hortons drive-through at pit exit?
Aren't we a little beyond hollow threats?Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
Thanks thunderbolt, just enough in there to hang yourself:Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
Unwritten rule 4: A defending driver may move off-line once to defend his position and then move back to his original line on the way into a corner, but cannot push a rival on that line off the track
Now I really hate it when Hobbs is right over on speedtv, but he did comment that Webber had made 2 moves, which is almost impossible to see with out watching the move frame by frame. But Webber did pause his momentum going towards pit side of the track (even if for only some 3 frames on my dvd players frame advance) but enough to run afoul of this "un-written rule"
Edit: I Believe the unwritten rule is in regards to only 1 move to defend a position. the author of that story added more to make it fit his story. Either way, allowed 1 move to defend, Webber made 2...
wasn't the clip in the your first link good enough? Wanna know why that clip his hardly comparable? First, we are talking a dispute going into a corner, the "un-written" rule concerning this is... the driver ahead gets the racing line. Now did you notice it was a drying track? So we can clearly see Hamilton following the dry racing line. and with Webber on the wetter part of the track, its equally likely that Webber had some control issues as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbolt
Now to dig up a link to the thread about someone pushing Massa towards pit wall... remember the outrage... Massa was almost over the white lines!!! PENALTY!!! :p :
Ok, was that a wet track, or just a really crappy video? now I'm not so sure, which race was that from, maybe I might have it on dvd... :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by PSfan
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,...-23770,00.html
Quote:
Fernando had a run on me down the pit straight.
I tried to force him to my outside, but he dived into the pit lane exit - and onto the grass - on my inner and was through.
I knew that I had to re-pass him immediately, otherwise my race would be ruined, so I outbraked him five seconds later into turn one. It was a good move and, crucially, it ensured that I was in free air for the opening stint of the race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
Man!! if you are relying on markabilly and fousto as reinforcements, then you are in deep poo poo. You will get the George Custer feeling very soon. :p :
Interesting you should say that. Because from my calculations there were 66.5 cm's between the two cars in which Nando had to play with. More than enough space for him to not be on the grass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Good on Nando for staying with it and good on Webber for giving him space in the end. Nando was on the grass for only a second. Probably because he hadn't anticipated Webber giving him road back.
This thread should be closed. It's embarrassing.
It's hilarious that you're using an incident from 20 years ago to justify your thoughts today. Actually is proof in case that your concept is bizarre.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
In 1988 the US President was Ronald Reagen. Nuff said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
Kudos to that....
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSfan
The day someone is in a box checking moves on slow-frame to see if a penalty is handed out is the day I no longer follow F1. Plain and simple.
In Webber's own words:
"I moved accross the track to the pit lane re-entry point to protect my line to try and force Fernando to take the outside line, instead Fernando dived out into the pit lane and I think a bit onto the grass, I had to move back accross the track to give him some room by which time he was already past, I knew I had to get back around him or my race was screwed so I lifted and ducked back accross to the inside and made the pass"
From that, and then reviewing the video, its quite clear that webber moved accross to the outside of the track BEFORE Fernando pulled out of the draft, Webber was trying to make him take the outside line but it was Fernando who CHOSE to take the inside lane by diving into the pit lane.
If Fernando was already alongside and Webber then drove accross the track then that would be a different story, and Fernando would have been jumping up and down about it, but thats not what happened, its bloody obvious Fernando ducked out into the pit lane AFTER webber had driven accross the track, are you people bloody stupid or something?
Fernando knows that, hence why he didn't complain, he made a bloody gutsy move to try and make a position but Webber was even gutsier by breaking massively late for the corner to get the position back.
It was just good hard racing, I don't understand your bloody problem
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by RJL25
Which we dont see enough of anymore, even with the new aero regs. I'm all for drivers pushing the limits, both in pace and defending their position.
What we saw by Mark Webber was by todays standards, great driving.
( & very entertaining! )
However, the whole blocking/weaving thing has me amused.
You cannot complain about less overtaking whilst this is allowed.
It is a speed event isn't it?, the original concept?
Or is it a reflection of the present world?, i.e: obstructionism.
Weaving/blocking has grown like a cancer in motorsport as it has crept in over time. Some drivers have pushed the boundries at times but have got away with it as the stewards have been weak.
A football fan can't complain ( re: overtaking ) that footballers don't carry the ball enough if the opposition can hold them by the arm, can they?
Whats the difference?
The whole point in Mark going to the right was to make Alonso pass on the left so Mark had the inside line for the corner. He was not attempting to prevent Alonso from making the move. Alonso however was having none of it......Quote:
Originally Posted by punter_S14
Do none of the naesayers see that?
IMHO if this move was outside the bounds of propreity Fred would probably say something.
Although he may not, because I think he really enjoys mixing it up on the track.
However, Flavio would be screaming bloody murder. :)
Apparently not, I mean its incredibly obvious, but some people are just set against certain drivers, some against Webber, some against Hamilton, some against Button, etc, and so they search for anything they can to have a dig at that certain driver and make a big deal about it. If it was there fravorite driver they would be saying how great it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
I understand how painful the truth must hurt you being that Webber is one of the "pride of britanna"..........but you are the one who should be pulling out arrows out of your a$$----neither of us are relying upon anything but the evidence and only the evidence in form of videos.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
Webber did the dirt, and racing would have more passing, if it were not for such trash moves by someone who preaches better....but was in not england that gave rise to the definition of hypocrite??? As with fellow countrymen Max, Bernie, Dennis, Lewis.... :D