Briatore on Brawn drivers & credibility *merged*

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Originally Posted by ioan

Really? How about not being the best for the last 2 seasons?

Flavio said what he thought, and that is something to be appreciated with all the politics and hypocrisy going on in F1, and IMO he is right.

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thats what Im saying, Flavio's problem is that he cant get used to being in the midfield anymore, despite being in it for 2 seasons, after renault were what they were from 05-06. ;) and thats why things seems to be bad at renault in his point of view ;) (It comes across that way :rolleyes: )


However, I respect his outspoken, no nonsense say-what-i-think-and-what-i-want attitude, thats good, we need a man like that, but what he thinks is not neccesarily what is right, or what I think or what whoever else thinks ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Which is the most intelligent thing to do unless one wants to lose all the results of a hard work in the last laps of the race.

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Depends on where he comes out after his pitstop. If he is behind some very heavy cars for a very long time, he wouldn't have a chance for scoring a point.

Also, the traditional wisdom is that you put the super soft at the end of the race, cause the track has more rubber on it, and therefore the super softs will last longer.

It's a risky strategy IMO, but I think, considering where the Renault is, they are making the right decision by gambling on this. As you say, it might just work out for them.

from what i can make out even though brawn f1 is classed as a new entry they will get the TV money for honda
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...n-1670952.html

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Just in case nobody got that message, he later launched another broadside at Brawn, claiming that they should not receive any of the £25 million TV money that would have been payable to the now-defunct Honda team in 2009. And – you'll love this – he suggested that it should instead be shared among those teams

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Originally Posted by ioan

I rather appreciate Briattore's straight talking than Brawn's obvious intention to hide the reality from us.

Be a man Ross and acknowledge that your actions, given your position as FOTA technical director, are damaging the FOTA. Maybe I'm asking to much from him.

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Still hurting and whining over your loss?
How different it is, when he is no longer at Ferrari...

Now that Red Bull have pulled off a 1-2 finish without trick diffusers, Flavio should STFU and concentrate on his own team's shortcomings, not the least of which is their number 2 driver.

You're right Dave. Flavio should be more concerned with giving the Asturian Princess more than 8 laps of fuel, hiring a competent second driver, and lastly developing a competitive car.

Flav was right about the pensioner and the curbstone! Finishing so far behind Vettel and Webber in a dominant car is clearly showing that when it's down to driver ability Flav was 100% right.

Humble pie is served for those who called Flav an arse! Bon appetit!

Is it [the Brawn] a dominant car in the wet, though? They've had precicesly zero wet-weather testing, and in the very wet stages of the race were a lot heavier. I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions from China, and in any case that's merely deflecting from the actual point which is Flavio's pathetic attempt to blame anybody else but his own team for Renault's shortcomings.

Red Bull had the same sort of fuel load as Alonso this weekend, and converted it into a 1-2 while one Renault driver went from 2nd to 9th and the other will probably have finished by Tuesday afternoon.

Remind me where Alonso and Piquet finished and who is where in both championships?

Briatore should concentrate on his team instead of criticising the Brawn drivers and denying Brawn money they are due simply because they've done a better job.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Is it [the Brawn] a dominant car in the wet, though?

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As far as we know in the wet the driver's bum is what need to be dominant.
Even if we would put both cars equal still the Brawn drivers are not complete drivers, they are good journeymen.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Remind me where Alonso and Piquet finished and who is where in both championships?

Briatore should concentrate on his team instead of criticising the Brawn drivers and denying Brawn money they are due simply because they've done a better job.

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Sorry mate, but that doesn't make Buttona and Rubens any faster.
Take another piece of humble pie, you earned it, again.

Those complaining about Flavio speaking his mind....should Jackie Stewart stfu too?

Barrichello was and is a waste of a competitive seat...once again failing to maximise a brilliant car.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Those complaining about Flavio speaking his mind....should Jackie Stewart stfu too?

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I imagine that today he's pretty pleased to see the latest incarnation of team he founded then sold at a healthy profit winning in such style.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

I imagine that today he's pretty pleased to see the latest incarnation of team he founded then sold at a healthy profit winning in such style.

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You mean the team that didn't win for 10 years thanks to his legacy?

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Is it [the Brawn] a dominant car in the wet, though? They've had precicesly zero wet-weather testing, and in the very wet stages of the race were a lot heavier. I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions from China, and in any case that's merely deflecting from the actual point which is Flavio's pathetic attempt to blame anybody else but his own team for Renault's shortcomings.

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Button mentioned after the race that the car was "floating" around in the wet conditions, so they weren't as fast as they perhaps should have been. Just because they're the top cars in the dry doesn't automatically convert to best in the wet.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

You mean the team that didn't win for 10 years thanks to his legacy?

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;)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74624

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(Brawn) said his drivers had struggled to keep heat in their wet tyres as effectively as the Red Bulls had.
"We were struggling with tyre temperature after the safety car came in," Brawn explained. "That may have been a factor because when the cars came out after pitstops it didn't seem too bad, and when we could got temperature it was okay. Rubens actually had the fastest lap."

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Originally Posted by christophulus

Button mentioned after the race that the car was "floating" around in the wet conditions, so they weren't as fast as they perhaps should have been. Just because they're the top cars in the dry doesn't automatically convert to best in the wet.

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The others were floating around too, as we clearly saw. It was the same conditions for everyone and drivers made the different in the case of pretty equal cars.

Jenson and Rubens are not worthy of championship titles in F1.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

You mean the team that didn't win for 10 years thanks to his legacy?

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The team which grabbed a P2 at Monco in its debut year, then won with Johnny Herbert in similar conditions to today. That Ford couldn't sustain that once they'd bought it is hardly Stewart's fault.

Anyway, once again we digress from the point of this thread: Flavio should stop deflecting. His team is massively underperforming, and slinging mud around won't help.

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Originally Posted by christophulus

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74624

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(Brawn) said his drivers had struggled to keep heat in their wet tyres as effectively as the Red Bulls had.
"We were struggling with tyre temperature after the safety car came in," Brawn explained. "That may have been a factor because when the cars came out after pitstops it didn't seem too bad, and when we could got temperature it was okay. Rubens actually had the fastest lap."

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Load of crap from Ross.
Button was 20 seconds behind Vettel after his last pitstop and ended up more than 40 seconds adrift at the end, with no SC in between.

Also if tire pressure was the problem why did they chose not to change Rubens tires at the lat pit stop?

Ross is trying to cover up for the drivers not being up to the task, and it's normal one's a pensioner and the other is a curbstone compared to Vettel.

Jenson is good when everything is right but that's it. I have a feeling he wouldn't have won in Sepang if the race would not have been stopped, so getting only 5 points was some divine justice.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Barrichello was and is a waste of a competitive seat...once again failing to maximise a brilliant car.

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Speaking of waste... I think Flav should look closer at home. The biggest waste and discredit to F1 is his own driver.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

one Renault driver went from 2nd to 9th and the other will probably have finished by Tuesday afternoon.

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be fair now dave, he went from 2nd to LAST before the race as such even began, and then back up to 9th :)

still, could have been 6-7th but for a spin too many :dozey:


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

I don't know about the car comparison between Red Bull and Brawn GP in the wet, but I definitely do rate the RBR driver line-up higher than Brawn's. Actually, IMO Red Bull has the best driver line-up in F1 at the moment. Feel free to disagree. ;)

But Button and Barrichello have proved to be quick wet weather drivers in the past, so there isn't an exact reason to dismiss their performances either, although... considering that Rubens is getting beaten by Jenson even by a bigger margin than he did by Michael years ago, I suspect RB's better days may be over...

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Originally Posted by jens

I don't know about the car comparison between Red Bull and Brawn GP in the wet, but I definitely do rate the RBR driver line-up higher than Brawn's. Actually, IMO Red Bull has the best driver line-up in F1 at the moment. Feel free to disagree. ;)

But Button and Barrichello have proved to be quick wet weather drivers in the past, so there isn't an exact reason to dismiss their performances either, although... considering that Rubens is getting beaten by Jenson even by a bigger margin than he did by Michael years ago, I suspect RB's better days may be over...

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He was fasted driver around that circuit in the dry. Enough said, he's picking up the points aswell.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I certainly hope that the F1 teams cheat less that the Serie A teams... although highly offensive. And while the insults to Jenson and Rubens and Glock are simply a matter of bad taste, this Naka thing is horrible, almost racist.

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What the hell was RACIST about what flavio said about nakajima? Crazy.

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Originally Posted by jens

I don't know about the car comparison between Red Bull and Brawn GP in the wet, but I definitely do rate the RBR driver line-up higher than Brawn's. Actually, IMO Red Bull has the best driver line-up in F1 at the moment. Feel free to disagree. ;)

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Ok, I will! :D

In the words of an old Michelob advert...

'Some things, speak for themselves..."

DRIVER STANDINGS

01 Jenson Button 21
02 Rubens Barrichello 15
03 Sebastian Vettel 10
04 Timo Glock 10
05 Mark Webber 9.5
06 Jarno Trulli 8.5
07 Nick Heidfeld 4
08 Fernando Alonso 4
09 Heikki Kovalainen 4
10 Lewis Hamilton 4

CONSTRUCTOR STANDINGS

01 Brawn-Mercedes 36
02 RBR-Renault 19.5
03 Toyota 18.5
04 McLaren-Mercedes 8
05 BMW Sauber 4
06 Renault 4
07 STR-Ferrari 4
08 Williams-Toyota 3.5
09 Ferrari 0
10 Force India-Mercedes 0

just think hes an an italian ass thats a sore losser and cant stand the fact the fact a new team like brawn is winning already and his team is not winning like they USE to. i dont hear alonso making a fuss nor Jr. end of the day it upto him and his team to get better and catch brawn gp and pther teams up...end of

Has anyone thought that perhaps the thing that has made Brawn so dominant so far is exactly why they were not so good in the wet?

What I mean is, that their performance has everything to do with tire temperatures. In the dry, you try to get your tires up to temp fairly quickly (which in F1, most of that work is done by tire warmers) then you try to keep them "cool". That makes the tires "happy" and last for a long while.

The reverse is true in the rain. YOU NEED ALL THE HEAT IN THE TIRES YOU CAN GET. I don't know how to stress that more. Tires make grip with heat. Water strips heat from tires. If you can warm up the tires you are better off. Well it appears that the Brawn is a very nice car from the tire's point of view. That is a VERY good thing in the dry, but not so good in the wet.

The lack of testing in the wet that they had, means that they didn't know exactly how to change the car to work in the wet. They took a good stab at it and came up second best on the day. Not too shabby, if you ask me.

But that explanation doesn't then explain why they won in malaysia?

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Originally Posted by Tumbo

But that explanation doesn't then explain why they won in malaysia?

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I thought they were pretty lucky that Webber pitted when he did in Malaysia.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Has anyone thought that perhaps the thing that has made Brawn so dominant so far is exactly why they were not so good in the wet?

What I mean is, that their performance has everything to do with tire temperatures. In the dry, you try to get your tires up to temp fairly quickly (which in F1, most of that work is done by tire warmers) then you try to keep them "cool". That makes the tires "happy" and last for a long while.

The reverse is true in the rain. YOU NEED ALL THE HEAT IN THE TIRES YOU CAN GET. I don't know how to stress that more. Tires make grip with heat. Water strips heat from tires. If you can warm up the tires you are better off. Well it appears that the Brawn is a very nice car from the tire's point of view. That is a VERY good thing in the dry, but not so good in the wet.

The lack of testing in the wet that they had, means that they didn't know exactly how to change the car to work in the wet. They took a good stab at it and came up second best on the day. Not too shabby, if you ask me.

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:up: Good assessment I think.

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Originally Posted by Tumbo

But that explanation doesn't then explain why they won in malaysia?

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The majority of the race in Malaysia was in the dry, and when it rained it wasn't that hard at first... the major problem most people seemed to be having was preserving their wet tyres. Quite different from China where the track was covered in standing water from the start.

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Originally Posted by Tumbo

But that explanation doesn't then explain why they won in malaysia?

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They won in Malaysia because they were in front when it started raining, and as we all saw it was hard to even make up time on the guy ahead (providing he didn't spin), let alone pass the guy.

Plus Red Bull probably added a few "bits" that made their car better this week wet or dry.

Re-thinking my above post a bit, I think I need to expand/modify a bit. When it started to rain in Malaysia, it was really a fairly light rain, but everyone went straight on to full wets. In this case, low water levels, you need to keep heat out of the full wet tires because the water isn't doing it for you. So in that case the Brawn's excelled again. Then the "big rain" came and no one could really do anything.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Has anyone thought that perhaps the thing that has made Brawn so dominant so far is exactly why they were not so good in the wet?

What I mean is, that their performance has everything to do with tire temperatures. In the dry, you try to get your tires up to temp fairly quickly (which in F1, most of that work is done by tire warmers) then you try to keep them "cool". That makes the tires "happy" and last for a long while.

The reverse is true in the rain. YOU NEED ALL THE HEAT IN THE TIRES YOU CAN GET. I don't know how to stress that more. Tires make grip with heat. Water strips heat from tires. If you can warm up the tires you are better off. Well it appears that the Brawn is a very nice car from the tire's point of view. That is a VERY good thing in the dry, but not so good in the wet.

The lack of testing in the wet that they had, means that they didn't know exactly how to change the car to work in the wet. They took a good stab at it and came up second best on the day. Not too shabby, if you ask me.

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I agree 100%, I thought that on Sunday.

Besides, the Red Bull is just a better car in the wet. To be honest, Jenson did well to keep them honest as long as he did.

About the topic, and Flavio again: he's bitter, simple as that. He needs to be sorting out the brick of a car they have, and the incompetence of his second driver, rather than trying (hopelessly I might add) to rile the championship leaders.

Alonso has done a brilliant job for them over the last two years, to little avail. This year he has been as good as ever, but unless Renault can give him a good car he is wasting the best years of his career due to no fault of his own.

Briatore needs to grow up, and act like an experienced team owner, and not some kind of childish Peter Stringfellow wannabe. Like someone said earlier on in the thread, he needs to take a leaf out of his drivers' book. To say something for Piquet at least he's not crying about his misfortunes and making excuses like his team manager.

I think that Flavio has a right to be angry.

2006 - Mass Damper ruled illegal. A clever and careful interpretation of the rules.
2009 - Double Diffuser ruled legal. A clever and careful interpretation of the rules.

Now, call me cynical, but when one decision favoured Ferrari and a German driver, there was outrage on this forum....but now the latest decision favours a British team and, oh look, what a surprise, a British driver, it's suddenly a fantastic decision!

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I think that Flavio has a right to be angry.

2006 - Mass Damper ruled illegal. A clever and careful interpretation of the rules.
2009 - Double Diffuser ruled legal. A clever and careful interpretation of the rules.

Now, call me cynical, but when one decision favoured Ferrari and a German driver, there was outrage on this forum....but now the latest decision favours a British team and, oh look, what a surprise, a British driver, it's suddenly a fantastic decision!

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In my opinion in 2006 FIA made a mistake and in 2009 it was right.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

I agree 100%, I thought that on Sunday.

Besides, the Red Bull is just a better car in the wet. To be honest, Jenson did well to keep them honest as long as he did.

About the topic, and Flavio again: he's bitter, simple as that. He needs to be sorting out the brick of a car they have, and the incompetence of his second driver, rather than trying (hopelessly I might add) to rile the championship leaders.

Alonso has done a brilliant job for them over the last two years, to little avail. This year he has been as good as ever, but unless Renault can give him a good car he is wasting the best years of his career due to no fault of his own.

Briatore needs to grow up, and act like an experienced team owner, and not some kind of childish Peter Stringfellow wannabe. Like someone said earlier on in the thread, he needs to take a leaf out of his drivers' book. To say something for Piquet at least he's not crying about his misfortunes and making excuses like his team manager.

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Agreed. If they got a better 2nd driver it would probably help speed up development.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

In my opinion in 2006 FIA made a mistake and in 2009 it was right.

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Agreed on this one too. The mass damper should never have been deemed illegal. However, we now have J-dampers that do pretty much the same thing, and in my opinion, they do the job better. Another case of clever engineers figuring things out.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I think that Flavio has a right to be angry.

2006 - Mass Damper ruled illegal. A clever and careful interpretation of the rules.
2009 - Double Diffuser ruled legal. A clever and careful interpretation of the rules.

Now, call me cynical, but when one decision favoured Ferrari and a German driver, there was outrage on this forum....but now the latest decision favours a British team and, oh look, what a surprise, a British driver, it's suddenly a fantastic decision!

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The mass damper thing was awful. The FIA tried their best to rob the championship from Renault that year. Just like in 03 when Williams and McLAren lost out because of the tyre protests.

I don't think it has anything to do with nationality. I'm British and I was outraged by the mass damper situation. Just like I was outraged with the protests from BMW et al this year.