It's time to screw Russia over

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Thank you Rudy. But still....we can say he's obedient to Russia, can't we?

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Junior partner, yes. Obedient, no. In time of disagreement with Russia he indluges in such anti-Russian rhetoric, it would make Saakashvili go green of envy.

Rudy, if it is not annoying to you, can you tell me (us) more about Belarus and it's people and the differences between you and the Russians. I am asking because the name of Belarus sounds a lot like "White Russia".
Thank you in advance.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I am asking because the name of Belarus sounds a lot like "White Russia".

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Or like " Beautiful Russia " for latins.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I am asking because the name of Belarus sounds a lot like "White Russia".

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or more like a tractor :)

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Originally Posted by Tomi

What do you think will Russia place missiles in Belarus, now when Poland agreed to take the us missiles on their soil?

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My guess is no. The furthest it gets will be the inegrated anti-aircraft defense system. But then I've often been wrong with my predictions and this has the likelihood of 50%, either yes, or, well, no.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

My guess is no. The furthest it gets will be the inegrated anti-aircraft defense system. But then I've often been wrong with my predictions and this has the likelihood of 50%, either yes, or, well, no.

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Ahaa, the miltary experts here thinks its likely they will place in Belarus or in Kronstadt or in both.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Rudy, if it is not annoying to you, can you tell me (us) more about Belarus and it's people and the differences between you and the Russians. I am asking because the name of Belarus sounds a lot like "White Russia".
Thank you in advance.

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The very name 'Belarus' is a derivative of Rus'. Rus' was an early mediaeval state between Baltic and Black seas. It was founded in 9th century as a political compromise between the local Slavic, Baltic and Finnic communities and the companies of Scandinavians pirates and traders that were wandering there. Those Scandinavians called themselves 'rots' that meant 'rowers' and in Slavic dialects it mutated to 'rus'. Since the first ruling dynasty was Scandinavian, the name stuck to the whole region. In Latin it was spelled as 'Russia' or 'Ruthenia'. Rus' disintegrated very soon and mediaeval scholars had to distingush between its different regions, which they did using colour symblolics. Parts of modern day Belarus were called 'Ruthenia Alba', or White Rus (Bielaja Rus in Belarusian) as early as 14 century. So initially it was just a geographic name. But by early 17 century when most of the elements of the emerging Belarusian ethnie were in place, the scholarly name was picked to indicate a new people. And in early 20 century when the Russian Empire broke up and Belarusians became a political nation, it was used as a name for the whole country.

Russia kinda privatized the Latinized version of the name 'Rus' but ironically they do not use the original version in their language other than poeticallypreferring a Hellenized version 'Rossiya' instead.

Historically the path of Belarus was different from Russia's. After the breakup of Rus' Belarusians felt pretty comfortable with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

...(continued, sorry)... ;) and then were forcefully occupied by Russia. However, by early 20 century Belarusians lost their elites, assimilated by stronger neighbours and became a nation of farmers. Because of that many Belarusians accepted the leftist ideas managed to turn the leftist modernization in the Soviet Union to their favor. Belarusians did pretty well in the USSR and still keep much of the Soviet heritage including cultural achievements, industrial potential, welfare state and decent infrastructure. Here lie the roots of the current pro-Russian policies of the Belarus' govt.

Ethnically we are different from Russians with a separate language, a unique folk culture and psychological dispositions. We are much more rational, cold-blooded and reserved. Diligent workers, but not very creative. Disciplined implementers but lack leadrship skills. Very practical, economical and thorough, but sometimes let small details get in the way of the bigger picture. Still growing up as a nation. :)

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Yes, that's what it sounds when you put it out like that. But all due respect, I didn't mean it like that.

What I meant it's not as easy to see all the things Russia do if you don't have the ringside seats as we do.

I said yourself:



On paper it can look anything or people may say anything about USA's involment etc. But it's just very black and white. I bet you could have a different view if you'd have a history and their shadow over your shoulders all the time.

My point is that Russia has for years and years done the **** they do and they always seem to get away with it. And it pisses me off. They really are bullies like some already said. Their idea of diplomacy is to scare people silent. Now the opposition here in Finland is whining about our politics that it's way too much against Russia and it's risky. Apparently we have the weakest Russia relation since the WWII :eek: Well dippidii duu. If Russia's idea of relation is; "if you're not with us, you're against us" it's pretty hard to please them... unless you kiss their ***** like these conservative opposition parlament members would like.

I'm not sure whether I like the media novadays? or not It's true we get the news quicker and the whole world is able to see what they've done. But we also get that propaganda so people won't know what part to believe :mark:

Bummer I guess.

Anyway, the point for this post was sorry, didn't mean to be ignorant to you.

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Yeah, sorry just thought it came across as harsh, if you didn't mean it to come across that way apology accepted and no hard feelings :) .

I agree and accept Russia aren't the good guys, as I've said in seveal posts. I'm just pointing out the obvious. Plus they're not as much as bullies as America.

And to be fair, bullying is part of world politics, we'd never agree on anything if we all depended on conversation and negotiation. Pressure and incentives have to be used, and they're a form of bullying. Biggest world bullies in my eyes is America.

But back to this case, I don't particularly see what Russia is meant to have done. They probably do have another motive other than protecting their own people, but Georgia went in knowing it would force Russia into action.

This doesn't make Russia the good guys, but it definately doesn't make Russia the evil monstors (in this instance) in the wrong in this instant like the media (led by USA) would have us believe.

doesn't make Russia the evil monstors


Well why don't you go tour the country and get back to us on the evil???

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

...(continued, sorry)... ;) and then were forcefully occupied by Russia. However, by early 20 century Belarusians lost their elites, assimilated by stronger neighbours and became a nation of farmers. Because of that many Belarusians accepted the leftist ideas managed to turn the leftist modernization in the Soviet Union to their favor. Belarusians did pretty well in the USSR and still keep much of the Soviet heritage including cultural achievements, industrial potential, welfare state and decent infrastructure. Here lie the roots of the current pro-Russian policies of the Belarus' govt.

Ethnically we are different from Russians with a separate language, a unique folk culture and psychological dispositions. We are much more rational, cold-blooded and reserved. Diligent workers, but not very creative. Disciplined implementers but lack leadrship skills. Very practical, economical and thorough, but sometimes let small details get in the way of the bigger picture. Still growing up as a nation. :)

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Thanks for the kind answer.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Ahaa, the miltary experts here thinks its likely they will place in Belarus or in Kronstadt or in both.

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Kronstadt?!

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Yeah, sorry just thought it came across as harsh, if you didn't mean it to come across that way apology accepted and no hard feelings :) .

I agree and accept Russia aren't the good guys, as I've said in seveal posts. I'm just pointing out the obvious. Plus they're not as much as bullies as America.

And to be fair, bullying is part of world politics, we'd never agree on anything if we all depended on conversation and negotiation. Pressure and incentives have to be used, and they're a form of bullying. Biggest world bullies in my eyes is America.

But back to this case, I don't particularly see what Russia is meant to have done. They probably do have another motive other than protecting their own people, but Georgia went in knowing it would force Russia into action.

This doesn't make Russia the good guys, but it definately doesn't make Russia the evil monstors (in this instance) in the wrong in this instant like the media (led by USA) would have us believe.

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Russia was supposed to retreat from Georgia already a week ago, according to a treaty they signed with the mediation of the French president, yet they are still in Georgia and today they captured retained a French minister for 3 hours?!

Now, tell me again that they aren't the bad ones in this story! :rolleyes:

BTW, Russia announced today that they are freezing their cooperation with NATO.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Kronstadt?!

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Not Braşov, the other one.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Ahaa, the miltary experts here thinks its likely they will place in Belarus or in Kronstadt or in both.

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and also to Köningsberg = Kaliningrad

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Not Braşov, the other one.

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OK, I was a bit worried there! ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Russia was supposed to retreat from Georgia already a week ago, according to a treaty they signed with the mediation of the French president, yet they are still in Georgia and today they captured retained a French minister for 3 hours?!

Now, tell me again that they aren't the bad ones in this story! :rolleyes:

BTW, Russia announced today that they are freezing their cooperation with NATO.

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Russia today announced they're moving all combat troops from Georgia.

Georgia went in and killed civilians on the 7th of August.

I'm not saying Russia is the good guy, but I'm saying Georgia isn't the good guy either.

Surely you can see the difference in how the media is portraying Russia and Georgia?

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Russia today announced they're moving all combat troops from Georgia.

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They announced the same thing 1 week ago.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Georgia went in and killed civilians on the 7th of August.

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Or at least that is what Russia is saying.
What Georgia did is counter the Osetian movements. And those were not civil but guerrilla fighters supported by Russia.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Surely you can see the difference in how the media is portraying Russia and Georgia?

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Yep, and I think that they are right. Russia attacked an independent and sovereign country, Georgia didn't. Surely you can see the difference.

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Originally Posted by ioan

They announced the same thing 1 week ago.



Or at least that is what Russia is saying.
What Georgia did is counter the Osetian movements. And those were not civil but guerrilla fighters supported by Russia.



Yep, and I think that they are right. Russia attacked an independent and sovereign country, Georgia didn't. Surely you can see the difference.

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My understanding was that they agreed to move back into OS, and they moved back, but remained in Georgia in the buffer regions to protect themselves.

Russia and Tbilisi agree on plan, however USA and Nato reject this.

I read interesting articule on BBC website abuot eyewitness accounts, saying Georgia killed many civilians, but I can't find it atm, but will keep looking and find you a link :)

You claiming SO is an independent and sovereign country?

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

My understanding was that they agreed to move back into OS, and they moved back, but remained in Georgia in the buffer regions to protect themselves.

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Against who or what?!

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Russia and Tbilisi agree on plan, however USA and Nato reject this.

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:confused:

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

You claiming SO is an independent and sovereign country?

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I was talking about Georgia. :rolleyes:
Not to mention that South Osetia is also part of Georgia.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Against who or what?!



:confused:



I was talking about Georgia. :rolleyes:
Not to mention that South Osetia is also part of Georgia.

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Against Georgian troops.

Yep, Russia and Tbili agreed on a peace plan.

Officially SO isn't independent. But majority of people there class themselves as Russian.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Against Georgian troops.

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:laugh: The menacing Georgian troops! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Yep, Russia and Tbili agreed on a peace plan.

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I know, what I want to know is what were you blabbering about the uSA and NATO not agreeing with it! Common, spit the beans.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Officially SO isn't independent. But majority of people there class themselves as Russian.

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I was talking about Georgia being independent, not about SO, why do you continuously go back to talking about SO and it's independence?!

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Officially SO isn't independent. But majority of people there class themselves as Russian.

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No, the Russian government purposefully gave them Russian passports in order to "justify" an invasion of Georgian territory to protect "its people". They are no more Russian than the Georgian volleyball teams are Georgian.

Now Russia wants to keep 2000 troops in Georgia. Make of that waht you will..

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Originally Posted by ioan

:laugh: The menacing Georgian troops! :laugh:



I know, what I want to know is what were you blabbering about the uSA and NATO not agreeing with it! Common, spit the beans.



I was talking about Georgia being independent, not about SO, why do you continuously go back to talking about SO and it's independence?!

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Yeah, the Georgian troops killing people. Same as Russian troops.

Because Nato and USA rejected their proposal. The Russian and Tbili proposal seemed like a reasonable compromise, while the one proposed by France was totally in favour of Georgia.

Because the issue is all about SO. It has some importance to the situation.

PS: Why be so agressive and patronising in your posts? Whats wrong with disagreeing and discussing it maturely? Can I ask your age?

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Originally Posted by Drew

No, the Russian government purposefully gave them Russian passports in order to "justify" an invasion of Georgian territory to protect "its people". They are no more Russian than the Georgian volleyball teams are Georgian.

Now Russia wants to keep 2000 troops in Georgia. Make of that waht you will..

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Could you source that for me Drew?

In all I've read about this, I have not come across this. All I've come across is that majority of people see themselves as Russian.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Could you source that for me Drew?

In all I've read about this, I have not come across this. All I've come across is that majority of people see themselves as Russian.

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Are you asking me to source about the Russians giving the people in South Ossetia and Abkhazia Russian passports or about Russia maintaining 2000 troops in Georgia?

I hope that SO and Abhazia get what they want, independence, and then I hope that Georgia will be free to do what it wants with its country.
There are only losers in wars.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I hope that SO and Abhazia get what they want, independence, and then I hope that Georgia will be free to do what it wants with its country.
There are only losers in wars.

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hopefully but then probably california would want theirs too

It makes sense to use overwhelming force to finish a dispute quickly and ends up better for both sides as less casualties will be endured and less money spent.

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Originally Posted by fousto

hopefully but then probably california would want theirs too

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I hope not ;) Still Kosovo created a dangerous precedent. Hopefully more people will understand that in global world it is better not to have borders at all, then to make stupid wars in the style of the 19th century.

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Originally Posted by fousto

hopefully but then probably california would want theirs too

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Don't worry. Schwarzenegger was elected to lead, not to read :)

There was a demonstration here Gdansk today. Seems some poles don't want the missiles here.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

There was a demonstration here Gdansk today. Seems some poles don't want the missiles here.

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Why would they? What are you doing there?

Here for a wedding. You could argue that it gives them some protection from Russia and means support will come from the US. Or you could say it makes them more of a target.

actually I oppose the missiles as well. you guys should defend yourselves if you think you need it. I don't need to be paying higher taxes for this sh!t. Plus they would just build nuclear cruise missiles which wouldn't be shot down. We can pick off a ICBM as it approaches our country. This is stupid and only causes more world tension.

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Originally Posted by Drew

No, the Russian government purposefully gave them Russian passports in order to "justify" an invasion of Georgian territory to protect "its people".

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Do you think they didn't want a Russian passport? I find it unlikely that anyone can give passports of another nation to someone who doesn't want it.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

There was a demonstration here Gdansk today. Seems some poles don't want the missiles here.

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I think the Polish leadership has played this quite well. After all, the current government was elected in part because the previous administration was perceived to have been thoughtlessly pro-American and aligned the nation too closely with American foreign and defence policies. I'm sure the government under Donald Tusk, which had previously stated some degree of opposition to hosting the missiles, will have extracted some other concessions from the US during the negotiations — the promise of a good deal on some more F-16 fighters, perhaps?

No idea. Perhaps I should have asked some people at the wedding. Or not :)

Russia has just recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, thus completing what the West started in Kosovo: destroying the world order that had existed since WWII. Hold tight guys, we are in for a big turmoil.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

thus completing what the West started in Kosovo: destroying the world order that had existed since WWII.

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In way it's natural, Europe and Asia is made out of countless small nations, often the smaller ones have had very little say in which bigger country they in any given time belong to. I doubt you'll find many, if not any countries in Eurasia that don't have any ethnic tensions going back decades, or even hundreds of years.
The borders that were drawn after WW2 are just as artificial as the ones drawn after the first world war, or the dozens of skirmishes before that.

All it takes is a bit ethnic prejudice and a charismatic nutcase and things go to the toilet in five years. :)