Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

That letter really has pulled the rug out from underneath Max. It is almost a coup de gras.

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Bernie's letter does make interesting reading.

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We believe it is to the benefit of Formula One that the FIA should have a transparent and robust governance structure and that it should discharge its regulatory responsibilities in a fair, impartial and non-discriminatory manner, without external influence or interference, led by a credible and respected President

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This seems to address some of the criticisms of Max made by others.

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Those agreements are valid and binding on the parties and will in all material respects become operative in 2011. They do not need to be altered or renegotiated unless both parties wish to do so

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This completely undermines Max's argument that he must stay in post to "save" F1.

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Formula One continues to be of tremendous benefit to the FIA. It derives in excess of US$ 25 million each year from Formula One (not including fines, which are often substantial sums) which subsidises other aspects of the sport...

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Could be seen as a dig at the imposition of one fine in particular.

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We intend to continue our successful relationship with the FIA. We believe it benefits Formula One as a whole. We have no reason to undermine the FIA or its President, on the contrary we believe a strong FIA led by a respected President is good for all key constituents of Formula One

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There it is again..."respected"...the inference being Max is not.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Bernie's letter does make interesting reading.


This seems to address some of the criticisms of Max made by others.

This completely undermines Max's argument that he must stay in post to "save" F1.

Could be seen as a dig at the imposition of one fine in particular.

There it is again..."respected"...the inference being Max is not.

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So, basically Bernie is saying Max is vindictive, creaming off F1 and is not fit to represent the FIA.

I would say that war has commenced if Max does not step down. This is worded very strongly and if battle commences, it could rip a gaping hole in the sport.

Nobody wants that.

The letter I linked above from F1.com appears to be an abbreviated version; here is the full letter: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67657

I think that if Max does not step down, the relationship will go from frosty to deep freeze between Bernie and Max. This could seriously undermine the running of F1.

The letter from Bernie you would think would be the last nail in Max's coffin.

I cannot believe the arrogance of Max to think he can continue on in any official role within the FIA. I'm sure there is a spot in the post room for him, where no one can see him. He has dragged this out and is trying to stay a float, with a concrete block tied to his feet.

If I got caught I would have gone by now, just to save my family the humilation of the whole affair. Arrogant fool....the world is full of them.

There are "ambiguities" in the 100 year agreement that need to be worked out ?
Sounds like the "agreement" has some disagreement in it .
Sounds like it doesn't come into effect until 2011 .
Sounds like the white knight Bernie is painting a picture here .

We don't want control of the regulations but we want you to talk to us first , before making any rash moves .

Gimme a break , guys .
You all slag Bernie , until he's a good tool with which to slag Max .

Let's see if Max responds .

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Originally Posted by Malllen

In less than 2 weeks, Mosley will either be dumped or retained by the FIA on June 3. I thought this subject should be brought up again.

He now states, "FIA risk losing control of F1 if I am dumped". Although I have to say I expected this type of politics from him ahead of the meeting.

Here's a long but interesting read:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67479



The underlined parts are probably the parts that'll scare some people into voting for his retainment.

The part in bold is interesting. Because, at times, giving someone else control over F1 regulations seems like a damn good idea at times!

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In the end, Max Mosley knows that as President of FIA he hasn't been in total control of FOM (Formula One Management) & realistically it's Eccelstone who has been running F1 as a unit that just happens to be part of FIA. I don't know what the fuss is between Mosely & Eccelstone but let's talk about 'private lives' for a while.

Max Mosely is the son of Sir. Oswald Mosley, the British Facist Leader who who supported Hitler & slaps strippers dressed in Nazi costumes on the backside & rants in German. Bernie Eccelstone is Jewish married to a Croatian woman (& former super-model) who happens to be taller than most F1 drivers, & he's shorter than most women I know.

Do these things really concern us or F1?

I have to admit, I don't care that Eccelstone is Jewish, that he votes Labour,& I really don't care what Mosley's father was or what Max does behind closed doors, & whoever prys on somebody is the real creep around here. Was it really to them to bring this out?

Everybody is missing the major point.

What Max Mosley does behind closed doors is his own business & has no place in FIA. It is indeed inapprorpriate behaviour, but it's not like he made it a priority to reveal it to the public. Drunken behaviour or public offences are quite something else. He kept it behind closed doors, fair enough, but who is anybody to sneak up on him behind closed doors?

Would it have made any difference if those strippers were dressed in Ferrari uniforms (I personally fancy what the grid-girls wear in Turkey!) but does that really matter to anybody? In the end, it's part of an odd scheme that has more to do with so-called, 'Nazi role playing' than it does with a 'sex scandal' & invasion of privacy is a major thing that has been violated. Whatever happened to 'he who is without sin shall throw the first stone?' I guess some people don't learn their lessons & live only by prying. Especially those who pry on others.



I believe that Mosley is a victim of invasion of privacy & a campaign to discredit him launched by certain extremist groups.

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Originally Posted by Tallgeese

I believe that Mosley is a victim of invasion of privacy & a campaign to discredit him launched by certain extremist groups.

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Well, that's an interesting label for Murdoch's tabloid NOTW. Not that I doubt much of the rubbish in that rag is extreme rubbish.

This is the latest from Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67667

Of particular interest is the following passage:

"In the letter sent last week, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com, Setsuo Tanaka, the president of JAF, claims that a vote was taken at the FIA Spring meeting in late April to make a fresh attempt to get Mosley to stand down.

Tanaka wrote: "The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

However it seems that Max is unlikely to pay any heed to the pleas of those who are asking him to step down.

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Tanaka wrote: "The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

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That's it in a nutshell.

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Originally Posted by Tallgeese

Everybody is missing the major point.

What Max Mosley does behind closed doors is his own business & has no place in FIA.

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And he should deal with his business as a private citizen... and not as a high-profile figure of embarrassment to the FIA.

That's what it's got to do with the FIA.

Mosley surely must understand the message that's sent out when the heads of state of Bahrain, Spain, Jordan (during the WRC), Turkey and now Monaco don't want to be seen associating with him.

This weekend he's in Monaco but demonstrably unable to do his job because he can't or won't make public appearances. Yet he maintains he's the best person for the role and the man most able to negotiate new contracts for the FIA.

Everybody else sees the paradox, why can't Max? Is there a hefty payout if he's ousted rather than quitting? Does he genuinely believe he's got nothing to be ashamed of? He could have walked out a month ago still retaining the tiniest shred of dignity. By clinging on to his post he's making himself a laughing stock and seriously risking the credibilty of the FIA.

Just go, Max.

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Originally Posted by Malllen

And he should deal with his business as a private citizen... and not as a high-profile figure of embarrassment to the FIA.

That's what it's got to do with the FIA.

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The problem is that it's been forced upon him in the media & even by FIA by some extremist groups who are out to get him. I don't defend for instant his actions, but 'sex scandals' (or Nazi-scandals) don't concern anybody else because in the end he is the victim of prying. It's not like he was 'caught' he was spied on & that should be condemned first.

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Originally Posted by Tallgeese

...that should be condemned first.

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I think there may be sympathy for Max that his private life has been made public. He's not the first to suffer at the hands of an intrusive media, but we've gone a long way from that being the main issue.

The main issue now is his credibility in his role as FIA President, and the credibility of the FIA in retaining Max as its President.

Should he win the vote and stay on as President, can he be at all effective representing the FIA in all the work it does (not just F1!) until the end of his term, while at the same time defending his private life through the courts?

The latest is while Max continues to ignore those who want him to quit, including senior figures within the FIA, F1's engine manufacturers have declined an invitation to attend a meeting with him in Monaco.

Bill Clinton had an affair with a secretary and the whole thing was made public and intensively discussed, still he stayed as president of the USA till the end of his term.

The private life of someone should stay private, and the ones to be condemned are those who infringe another persons privacy in order to discredit him/her.

Most people around here are happy that Max has problems because he dared to hit the cheaters last season.

Bernie is trying to take advantage of the situation in order to get more influence over F1 (it seems like the EC will however have something to say in the matter should he try to get hold of the economic and regulatory powers in F1). He also has some unfinished bussiness with Max, over the McLaren spying affair. Let's not forget that he was the one that kept FA and LH in the championship while Max wanted to throw the team out for 2 seasons!

things are not as simple as some think they are.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

This is the latest from Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67667

Of particular interest is the following passage:

"In the letter sent last week, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com, Setsuo Tanaka, the president of JAF, claims that a vote was taken at the FIA Spring meeting in late April to make a fresh attempt to get Mosley to stand down.

Tanaka wrote: "The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

However it seems that Max is unlikely to pay any heed to the pleas of those who are asking him to step down.

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If max gets a vote of no confidence, it will also reflect poorly on the FIA as well, that the entire group had to meet to condemn the "stuff" that should never be out there, but is. Max should have quietly resigned and if not that, then never asked for the extraordinary gathering......

Meanwhile all the stuff going on (like pit box changes, letters about F1 and such) reminds me of the Pirates of Carribean type story line, where allegiances are always shifting back and forth to try to screw one another.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Most people around here are happy that Max has problems because he dared to hit the cheaters last season...

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"Most people around here" are motorsport fans who would prefer to be looking forward to the Monaco GP.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

"Most people around here" are motorsport fans who would prefer to be looking forward to the Monaco GP.

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That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

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That is because all the passing makes it too difficult to keep track of who is leading the race or the wdc....... :burnout:

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

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It's certainly a fair reflection of how much coverage the 'Max story' is getting everywhere.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

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Very sad indeed :(

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

It's certainly a fair reflection of how much coverage the 'Max story' is getting everywhere.

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News papers and sites make money out of this, we don't! But that doesn't stop people from being more interested about this kind of things than they are by the racing. And we are talking about a 2 months old story!

But this is nothing new, tabloids sell very well everywhere around the world, and this is an indicator about the intellectual level of contemporary society.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's why after 2 days of practice and qualifying we hit 32 posts in the Monaco GP thread, while we have plenty in this thread about Max!
That's a good indicator of how much people care about the racing compared to discussing Max Mosley's private life. :rolleyes:

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More to it than that. This has turned into "A disgraceful person being the President of the FIA".

If such a person was the headmaster of the school my children went to when they were young, I would have asked for the Headmaster to be replaced or taken my children to another school.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

More to it than that. This has turned into "A disgraceful person being the President of the FIA".

If such a person was the headmaster of the school my children went to when they were young, I would have asked for the Headmaster to be replaced or taken my children to another school.

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You need quite some imagination to compare the FIA with the school where your kids went when they were very young, and Max with it's Headmaster. :rolleyes:
Sorry but this is starting to go towards ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by pino

Very sad indeed :(

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To be honest, pino, I was amazed that the only people interested by the qualys were you and me.

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Originally Posted by ioan

To be honest, pino, I was amazed that the only people interested by the qualys were you and me.

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If your grumble is with the amount of posts in this thread, as opposed to the Monaco one, could I ask why you post in here so much? :confused:

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The FIA is in a 'critical' situation and could suffer serious damage to its image and credibility unless Max Mosley resigns, a number of leading automobile clubs have warned the FIA president in a last ditch plea ahead of next week's confidence vote.

"We strongly believe that the only respectable way forward for the FIA, and for yourself, is to have an orderly transition, with an immediate agreement and your commitment to step down," said the letter, a copy of which has been seen by autosport.com.

"The FIA is in a critical situation. Its image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases. There is no way back."

"We deeply regret your refusal to accept the proposalby the members of the World Council for Automobile Mobility and Tourism to reach an agreement for you to step down at the General Assembly in the coming month of November," said the letter.

"This is a constructive effort to facilitate an orderly transition within the FIA and to find a solution to the present crisis.

"Instead, your intention to remain until the end of your term in 2009, in spite of the severe damage being inflicted to the FIA, could imply putting personal considerations before the interests of the FIA and its member clubs."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67809

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Originally Posted by ioan

Most people around here are happy that Max has problems because he dared to hit the cheaters last season.

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That's just your misguided perception, ioan. Most peoples' dissatisfaction with Max lies at the heart of his abuse of power, willfully forcing through new laws and regs thinly disguised as sporting or safety. I think the guy is a megalomaniac, and that is probably one of his better traits!! :p :

Suffers serious damage?

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Suffers serious damage?

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

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The head of the FIA cannot be seen with, or is avoided at all costs by all manner of high powered people in the sport, and yet he still thinks everything is tickety boo.

A good percentage of the member clubs have offered a face saving deal, but MAx refuses.

All Max wants, is to get voted out, so he can attempt to claim more damages. But that wont work, he has been on record stating (in the past) that he would serve no more that two terms, how much has be U-Turned on that one.

I guess he used to be indecisive, but he aint sure any more.... ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

That's just your misguided perception, ioan.

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I can say the same about your perception. That doesn't prove anything.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Most peoples' dissatisfaction with Max lies at the heart of his abuse of power, willfully forcing through new laws and regs thinly disguised as sporting or safety.

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If you would have used your cognitive processes you would have realized that if he wouldn't have pushed things through based on the safety concerns, which is the only time he imposed anything, than nothing at all would have changed in F1 because in F1 unanimity is needed in order to change things and that is rarely achieved.

He changed lots of things in better in F1. He hugely worked towards improving the safety in motor sports. We got to the point where we don't have TC anymore and this going against McLaren and Williams opposition for many years.
He was on the brink of bringing back customers car teams to F1, and again it was the teams who stopped him doing so.
2 race engines and 4 race gearboxes might seem against the spirit of F1 but made life easier for smaller teams.
Engine freeze is against the spirit of F1 but it helps again cutting the costs for the small teams who don't have to foot ever increasing bills for their engines.

You see, he might have done things that seem wrong to you but all have a positive side. And than there are all those things that were simply in the interest of the sport.

The positives of Mosley's work outweigh by far the negatives, but you need some good will to try and see this, through all the bias you have against he guy.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I think the guy is a megalomaniac, and that is probably one of his better traits!! :p :

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That's exactly the problem, you think and express plenty of things about him without knowing anything.
And I maintain that you are criticizing him based on him penalizing the McLiars, which is one of the best things he did in F1.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I can say the same about your perception. That doesn't prove anything.

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Isn't freedom of speach great?

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Originally Posted by ioan

If you would have used your cognitive processes you would have realized that if he wouldn't have pushed things through based on the safety concerns, which is the only time he imposed anything, than nothing at all would have changed in F1 because in F1 unanimity is needed in order to change things and that is rarely achieved.

He changed lots of things in better in F1. He hugely worked towards improving the safety in motor sports. We got to the point where we don't have TC anymore and this going against McLaren and Williams opposition for many years.
He was on the brink of bringing back customers car teams to F1, and again it was the teams who stopped him doing so.
2 race engines and 4 race gearboxes might seem against the spirit of F1 but made life easier for smaller teams.
Engine freeze is against the spirit of F1 but it helps again cutting the costs for the small teams who don't have to foot ever increasing bills for their engines.

You see, he might have done things that seem wrong to you but all have a positive side. And than there are all those things that were simply in the interest of the sport.

The positives of Mosley's work outweigh by far the negatives, but you need some good will to try and see this, through all the bias you have against he guy.



That's exactly the problem, you think and express plenty of things about him without knowing anything.
And I maintain that you are criticizing him based on him penalizing the McLiars, which is one of the best things he did in F1.

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I don't really think safety is the issue here. It's the meddling he does - like the Renault damper, banned all of a sudden, the Michelin tyres, banned all of a sudden, the solution to the Indy fiasco that Max vetoed, his questioning the finances of a young F1 teams finances, holding back on their entry....... That's the vindictive side of Max to which I refer. :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

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1. Bahrain Prince asked Mosley not to attend[/*:m:32i70tlp]
2. Toyota also critical of Mosley's actions[/*:m:32i70tlp]
3. Honda asks FIA to consider Mosley's role[/*:m:32i70tlp]
4. Theissen stands by Mosley criticism[/*:m:32i70tlp]
5. ADAC tells Mosley to reconsider his role[/*:m:32i70tlp]
6. Dutch federation wants Mosley to quit[/*:m:32i70tlp]
7. American body asks Mosley to step down[/*:m:32i70tlp]
8. Ickx joins calls for Mosley resignation[/*:m:32i70tlp]
9. Lauda also joins call for Mosley to go[/*:m:32i70tlp]
10. Mosley faces more calls to resign[/*:m:32i70tlp]
11. Hill: Mosley should reconsider position[/*:m:32i70tlp]
12. South African body tells Mosley to quit[/*:m:32i70tlp]
13. Porsche: scandal makes F1 unattractive[/*:m:32i70tlp]
14. Webber: F1 'cannot afford' Mosley scandal[/*:m:32i70tlp]
15. Israel withdraws Mosley invite[/*:m:32i70tlp]
16. Mosley to skip official functions in Monaco[/*:m:32i70tlp]
17. Car makers skip FIA engine meeting[/*:m:32i70tlp]

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Originally Posted by ioan

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

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Perhaps, but you can't simply set aside one aspect of this. The effect is cumulative. As a number of leading automobile clubs have made clear the FIA's "image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases."

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

1. Bahrain Prince asked Mosley not to attend[/*:m:1gp46he3]
2. Toyota also critical of Mosley's actions[/*:m:1gp46he3]
3. Honda asks FIA to consider Mosley's role[/*:m:1gp46he3]
4. Theissen stands by Mosley criticism[/*:m:1gp46he3]
5. ADAC tells Mosley to reconsider his role[/*:m:1gp46he3]
6. Dutch federation wants Mosley to quit[/*:m:1gp46he3]
7. American body asks Mosley to step down[/*:m:1gp46he3]
8. Ickx joins calls for Mosley resignation[/*:m:1gp46he3]
9. Lauda also joins call for Mosley to go[/*:m:1gp46he3]
10. Mosley faces more calls to resign[/*:m:1gp46he3]
11. Hill: Mosley should reconsider position[/*:m:1gp46he3]
12. South African body tells Mosley to quit[/*:m:1gp46he3]
13. Porsche: scandal makes F1 unattractive[/*:m:1gp46he3]
14. Webber: F1 'cannot afford' Mosley scandal[/*:m:1gp46he3]
15. Israel withdraws Mosley invite[/*:m:1gp46he3]
16. Mosley to skip official functions in Monaco[/*:m:1gp46he3]
17. Car makers skip FIA engine meeting[/*:m:1gp46he3]

Perhaps, but you can't simply set aside one aspect of this. The effect is cumulative. As a number of leading automobile clubs have made clear the FIA's "image, reputation and credibility are being severely eroded. Every additional day that this situation persists, the damage increases."

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Don't forget, Max also said that 'her indoors' wasn't best pleased either! Perhaps he will be sked to skip his official husbandry duties also!!! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Don't forget, Max also said that 'her indoors' wasn't best pleased either!

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Maybe that's the problem - if he resigns, he'll have to go home and face the music from his missus ;)

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Originally Posted by SteveA

Maybe that's the problem - if he resigns, he'll have to go home and face the music from his missus ;)

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No doubt, she'll slap hima few times and he'll be in heaven... ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Suffers serious damage?

Can someone tell us what damage did the FIA suffer in the last 2 months?!

Politics aside nothing bad happened to anyone, all the FIA sanctioned sports went ahead as if nothing happened.

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ioan

You cannot carry on spouting spurious claims like this and expect people to take you seriously.

As Arrows and many others have demonstrated, the FIA has suffered greatly due to this fiasco and F1 has been dragged through the mire as a direct result.

This isn't opinion but cold, hard facts. Surely you can see this?

In all fairness, it seems that the problem is not with Max but with the people who just do not want to be seen dead near him. They are avoiding him like a leper. Poor Max. I almost feel sorry for him. NO!! NO!! I take that back. I must be having a senior's moment :(

He's suing the paper for breah of his privacy......Doesn't matter that he paid for 5 women to have sexual intercourse with him, which I believe is still ilegal in this country. (what part of being in the public eye did he not understand - last years court case hearings brought his name further to the front of the public interest).

I think he has made this all alot worse for him self. Did you see him on TV at the race at the weekend? I didn't, no one else did Either I'm guessing. Right now he serves no usefull purpose and is dragging his family through more agony than it deserves. He is a silly old man, with to much money and two much power.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

In all fairness, it seems that the problem is not with Max but with the people who just do not want to be seen dead near him. They are avoiding him like a leper. Poor Max. I almost feel sorry for him. NO!! NO!! I take that back. I must be having a senior's moment :(

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In all fairness, that is why he should resign.

Through his actions, whether you agree or not with the way they were exposed, there has been almost universal demand for him to resign which he steadfastly refuses to. Even if the vote of no confidence goes against him, there is no motion on the table for him to resign or even to remove him.

He is incapable of representing the FIA at official functions because of the fall-out from this.

Surely this has caused considerable, and possibly irrepairable damage to the FIA?