Regardless of how anyone feels, apparently momentum is ok.
http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=11431
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Regardless of how anyone feels, apparently momentum is ok.
http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=11431
Daytona is a shadow of what it once was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The auto rags used to be full of articles covering Daytona Speed Weeks, which in a disjointed manner included everything from the bike race, 24 hrs., modifieds on the road course, to the Daytona 500; with others inbetween.
The early part of each year was full of activities at Daytona.
THAT is how it got its reputation.
Bob
Paul Newman, co-owner of Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing: “It (reunification) was absolutely necessary for both groups. It’s tragic that it didn’t happen sooner but it’s good that it at least happened when it did. I think its going to be a great boost for both groups.
“It’s good to be back at Indianapolis. It brings back a lot of fond memories. We’ve won eight championships and come in second twice at Indianapolis but never won The 500. It’s wonderful to be running against Roger (Penske) and (Bobby) Rahal, and Michael (Andretti) and all those guys. It’s comfortable.
“My favorite tradition was that it took a whole month. Indy started at the first of May and you had your reservation at the (speedway) motel. If you wanted it (the room) for two days, you took it for the whole month or you wouldn’t get it and we’re going to work hard to get it back to that.”
rh
What better example of the whole cause of the split then this? What does taking a month to practice, qualify and run a race have to do with any of that? Cars need to be on track in Indy in order to hold a golf tournament or events at state fairgounds? Can't you see your very attitute is that of one who essentially wants to hold the racing series and its famous race hostage in order to bolster happenings around the city of Indianapolis. You sound like Tony George circa 1995. The "tradition" of Indy is like a crucible that grinds up the rest of the sport in order to bolster itself. Does the 24 hours of Lemans or the Daytona 500 or Monaco minimize and denigrate the rest of the series it is joined to or the rest of motorsports like Indy does? Not at all. Neither the split nor now the end of the split has solved this problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Yes, because they are using the month of May as testing time. What has that got to do with the one race? They could have tested for a month at Homestead instead to figure out the car. There is nothing magic about the asphault in Indy. it is the same as everywhere else, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses. Pick any random track out of a hat and make it a 1 month long event. After 5 years that will be a tradition too! If this format is actually so great then maybe the whole series should run this way and the IRL will only have about 5 races a year. :rolleyes:Quote:
And for those who are coming at this from a CC perspective, most of what I've read from those teams was that they could get up to speed much easier during May with the increase in track time. I haven't read one complaint from teams about it now. The war is over for them.
Everybody loves Newman, but again his favorite "tradition". I dont see any analysis of how that is good for the sport in the future. If the IRL actually wants to be attractive to people under 30 for the future then every event needs to be decided in a timeframre in which a vistor can see the whole thing - a 4 day weekend. We are in the age of WEB2.0 and you want to drag out a single auto race for a month and expect people to follow it? That is an insane buisness plan for the future - no matter what has happened in the past.Quote:
Hoop-98
"My favorite tradition was"
It is worth $100s of Millions to the State of Indiana. Replace it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Did you even read my post?Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
I was answering a post that said without Indy there would be no major open wheel series in the US.
I countered by stating that somebody would have started a series.
BTW CART was the established series. It was the IRL that was the upstart.
They did. It failed, twice and the first time it was an overall better product outside the month of may. You can try whatever you want, but if the fans don't pay attention, neither will the sponsors and you're going to have a lot of trouble bankrolling the operation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Which begs the question, did you read HIS post? He said it was called the ChampCar World series. Lest you forget, they were the ones who bought the CART assets to form a new series.
Gary
it wasn't sponsors are fans that bankrolled the IRL it was Tony George.Another split can happen as long as some super rich guy is ready to lose money to prove a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Good to see MARk from OSHAWA on the forum. I always agree with you, valid points as ever. Haven't seen you on here for a while. Hope your well?
As you can see people here are still going on about the split 3 months after it ended. Its history, what is important now is how things move on. More publicity for the 500 will bring more publicity to the IRL as a series. It'll take time to get back to pre split days and for the European market to take note they need to sort out coverage here too....
Please can we drop the Split stuff now. TG broke away, TG won the war. Theguys an idiot, but he got it right this year at last. Lets all learn from this and if any rich guys come along with a new series, tell em to shove it.
The split is the biggest part of open wheels history and it will alway be a hot topic.Just like AJ Foyt, Andretti & Unser its part of the history of the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST
I agree the split is a huge part of our history, but some keep going over it, when we all disagree who's at fault, and this thread is more about momentum and possible, changes in this modern era of the sport, to keep the sport in the lime light all season and not for just one race.
Here's my two pence/cent's worth : It's all TG's fault. Always will be, but as much as think he is at fault, he has made some really good moves recently and I hope the IRL goes from strength to strength. But I really miss CART/CCWS.
I hope this weekends race is great, I hope all the teams and drivers are safe, I hope the fans pack the grandstands and have a great day.
I JUST WISH I COULD SEE IT SUNDAY!!!!!!
EVERYONE ENJOY THE RACE THIS WEEKEND>
Let us see the history: The United States Auto Club sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 in 1995. The United States Auto Club sanctioned the Indianapolis 500 in 1996. Where is the break away?Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST
The rules for the chassis and engines were the same in 1995 and 1996. Where is the break away?
Yes, 25/8 was brought in July of 1995, after the April 3rd, 1995 meeting at the O'Hare Hyatt Regency Hotel in Rosemont, IL, in which CART voted to change their rules of the chassis thus locking themselves out of the 1996 500. There is the break away.
Not Tony. 25 car owners that thought they were bigger than the sport.
If you limit the context only to Indy, then of course that is correct. But who sanctioned the rest of the races those folks ran in 1995? It wasn't USAC it was CART. In that wider context, it was indeed Tony who broke away.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Gary
Nope, because the IRL had two races with no conflict. If CART drivers and teams had showed up then they would have earned 22 spots of the 25 and the IRL would have died a quick death.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
See changing the rules, rules in January of 1995, they voted down and then after racing and losing Phoenix they voted that rules package in.
See in 1995 both USAC and CART were working together on a rules package that would run from 1996-2000. The new car would be wider cockpits, driver moved back and higher side pods. A brand new car. CART voted to keep the rules of 1990-1995 in place as it was a hardship on some CART teams. USAC had to follow the lead of CART and who did USAC represent? IMS and the upstart IRL. So in January USAC/IRL wrote their rulebook and three months later CART changed their vote causing two different formulas to exist.
So how did Tony do anything? Want to blame someone, blame Buddy Jobe as if he had not been tossed out of his own box at Phoenix and threaten with arrest by CART officials then maybe he wouldn't have dumped CART in favor of the IRL. Then 3 days later CART wouldn't have changed their rules and certain other things would not have occurred and the two could have raced together at least in 1996.
(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)
CART was only at Indy because they sued in court to be allowed to be at Indy or CART would have died a long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Interesting. Maybe sometime I will be able to tell the true story about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
CART did not enter the car of 6 teams properly and USAC dissallowed the entries. A Judge ruled that CART did violate the rules but not the Spirit of the rules.
JRs book is confused as the only lawsuit for a restain of trade was Danny Ongais/Ted Field suit against CART for running Pocono that year, a USAC race.
(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)
Based upon my interpretation of the dialog in the preceeding 7 pages of this topic. The split is alive and well to these writers on both sides of the argument.
History is the past. There is a line in the "Optimist International's Creed" that states: "Forget the mistakes of the past and press on to the greater achievement of the future."
It's Friday in USA before a holiday meant to remember those who fought and lost their lives to give us rights like the one we use here as we write what we want to say. Let's spend some time to remember those men and women and put our differences aside for the weekend.
Bob Riebe: It's been two years, and the open-wheeled-racing arguments rage on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
The Nethead here will try to get up to speed on US open-wheeled racing that I haven't really followed after USAC restricted Andy Granatelli's 1967 STP turboshaft racecar into non-competitiveness--and then followed that insult up with injury by banning AWD after Colin Chapman's ill-fated turboshaft Lotuses (Surely the plural isn't "Loti"?) nearly won the 1968 Indy 500 despite their restricted intakes. What BS I've seen at Indy...
At least I hear that CART and the IRL have re-unified, if only so that they could get within knife and straight razor range of eacn other...
So, Bob, please sum up the current status of US open-wheeled racing in three sentences so I can play it by ear in this topic--stuff I make up is always better than stuff that has even an iota of truth in it anyway! What sorta fuel(s) do they use now? What sorta displacement regs/boost regs/etc. regs are they using now?
I sent you a PM via www.motorsportforums.com, too. I may not be able to respond before Tuesday since I leave on a three-day in 24 minutes...
The Nethead here, survivor of the old AutoWeek forums :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Again, I have no aregument with those facts. But still think that, as you put it, the "upstart IRL" can be considered by some as the break away. All I said in this conversation was that until the formation of the IRL, USAC santioned INDY and CART santioned the rest. By forming the IRL, Tony chose to break away from that paradgim, knowing that teams would have to decide between CART and the IRL on the rest of the races besides those two that didn't conflict. I wasn't attempting to place blame or anything else, just clarifying the notion of why many folks thougt of IRL as the break away.
Gary
I also do not dispute any facts stated by Waldo above however he writes from the IMS/IRL/Indy viewpoint. During that time frame the USAC sanctioned only one race, Indy. CART santioned all the others. CART owned all the cars and the teams except for a few Indy based small operations known for running at Indy only. CART was becoming quite successful and was under pressure to start new venues in US and Canada. Phoenix could be replaced with a new venue. Keep in perspective that we are talking about seasons with 20+ races per season with high car counts.
Granted greed got the best of decision makers on both sides. Feelings, egos or saving face became factors in those decisions. Mistakes, poor judgement and poor management played a role as well. Protecting one's turf and source of revenue was essential in both camps.
Finally, TG created another series. It took 12 years of split before KK gave up the fight. So there is one series now. TG with hind sight has admitted to some of his errors in judgement. I am sure that Roger, Chip, Pat, Gerald and Carl could all admit to their share of errors and/or greed led decisions.
It is time to move on. No amount of verbal bantering with each other will accomplish a thing other than perpetuate hatred.
Again, give it a rest and remember why we have this holiday off to go racing.
This deal was done the first time in 1989 for the 1990-1995 seasons. It was to control costs and since CART was losing cars it would hopefully get some new teams to be started and competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by dataman1
Kurt Russell and Mike Devin were designated at the technical heads of this and had final say but only the CART Board voted on it and thus it was approved. This was CHASSIS only, CART did have their boost rules and USAC theirs.
CART before the split averaged 16 races with Indy an USAC race.
Hope that clears it up.
(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)
Four wheel drive Indycars--greatly over rated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethead
People who founded CART--narcissistic morons.
Tony George--narcissistic bozo.
I have paid minimum attention to Indy cars since they became quasi-formula Honda.
There are gents here who can give you a much better analysis, of sorts.
Bob
Bob Riebe: All you say is true, except for "Four wheel drive Indycars--greatly over rated"! No one at Indy who tried 4WD had the knowledge to make it work until Granatelli's people in '67 and Colin Chapman's people in '68. In fact, 4WD worked so well that Granatelli's turboshaft STP car shoulda won it in '67 and one of Chapman's Lotuses should have made it two in a row in '68--but parts broke. The concept was clearly superior, but the execution was flawed...Mario Andretti has stated that the turboshaft Lotus that he drove at the '68 Indy 500 was the best racecar he had ever driven. It would not surprise me to hear that Parnelli Jones said something similar about the turboshaft one-off that he drove in the '67 Indy 500.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Seeing the potential breakthroughs in technology here, USAC promptly banned 4WD, thus ending forever any lingering thoughts that the Indy 500 is/was "the pinnacle of automobile racing". The Japanese will have to show the world yet again that great technology competently manufactured will kick ass anywhere, anytime.
But it was what it was and we'll likely never see turboshafts or 4WD at Indy ever again.
Roadracing:
Around the time that AutoWeek shut down their forums for a lengthy re-working (two years ago now?), the Ford GT was a fast, powerful, good-braking, good-handling street car (which Michael Schumacher lauded as "Astonishing!" after he drove one). This year, the supercharged 5.4L V8 has been replaced by a naturally-aspirated 5.0L V8 and has won all four 2008 FIA GT3 races this year, as well as a second and a first in Brazil's 2008 two GT3 races and two firsts and a second in Germany's 2008 four GT3 races. The 5.0 now used in these re-engined Ford GTs is a Roush-Yates developed version of the 5.0 R50 'Cammer used in the Mustang FR500C and Mustang FR500GT4. The Ford GTs are pretty difficult to get unless you fork over the eBay bucks--so Ford has quietly re-opened the chassis assembly line for those who order them for racing purposes only. How much of a complete Ford GT you get is not known to the Nethead here, and I'll hazard a guess that you have to purchase the 5.0 'Cammer separately from Roush-Yates Engines. The engines look externally identical to Ford's most recent crate engine, the 4.6L "Aluminator", that was first shown at last year's SEMA convention.
Whether Matech GT Racing has plans for an eventual assault on LeMans the Nethead here does not know, but Koenigsegg says they are thinking about it, and are developing a 600 HP 5.0L naturally-aspirated version of their twin supercharged 'Cammer to power the Koenigsegg CCGT. Will it be ready for June of '08? The Nethead here thinks not because it is an after-hours project at Koenigsegg--an assault on LeMans takes more than a hobby effort. I'll see if I can find a 2008 LeMans entry list.
I'm gonna "Submit Reply" now just in case this forum has a time-out!
Nethead:
I saw the PM but outside of the quick reply here, I have been gone.
I'll give you a PM later.
Bob
PS--The Parnelli Jones johnny Lighting team used 4WD Lolas, they did not like them.
To much work for rewards gained.
Bob Riebe: Then I have something screwed up--the Lightnings were post-1968 if I am not mistaken. If they were 4WD, then the Nethead here is wrong about 4WD being banned by USAC in '68! :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Bob Riebe: Per www.planetlemans.com, which has a provisional entry list for the event, there are no Koenigsegg entries yet--and time must surely be running out for entering the 2008 LeMans. 'Just as well--a hobby effort is hardly what it takes to be competitive...
On to other things. Retired golfer and retired racecar driver Eric de Doncker drove his #98 Mustang FR500GT4 (a tribute to the late Ken Miles's G.T. 350 circa 1965/1966) to the FIA GT4 European Driving Championship in the 2007 inaugural year and has a good lead in this year's championship (now sporting #1 as the reigning champion instead of last year's #98). He sold last year's car--what I would have given to have bought that baby for my personal enjoyment! I'm sure the purchaser gave more for it than the Nethead here could have given in my wildest dreams! Every race he has to confront a half-dozen Aston-Martin Vantage N24s, various tuner 350Zs, Lamborghini Trofeos, Porsche Caymans, and tuner BMW Z4s--the man likes his challenges! He came out of retirement because of his lifetime admiration of Ken Miles, and he's done ol' Ken proud! He may be one of Europe's oldest racecar drivers, but he's still a fox when it comes to getting the most out of the limited sets of tires allowed in the series (which have to last through two races). Let's hear it for the old dudes!! :up:
Bob Riebe: Monitor "Starter" deleted a posting to you from me as it was off-topic for the "Month of May" thread. No problemo.
Is there a non-open-wheeled roadracing topic in motorsportforums that you post in? As indicated in the three or four postings I've made in this forum, opened-wheeled racing is not my forte--it has too little relevance to vehicles I own and drive. I used to follow USAC in the late '60s, but disowned them over the turboshaft/4WD nonsense. For awhile, I then followed Formula 1--but with the death of Jim Clark and the USAC-like diddling with 1.5 liter turbocharged engines I found myself struggling to maintain interest in that, too.
If there isn't a non-open-wheeled roadracing topic in motorsportforums that you like, I'll discuss roadracing with you in whatever other roadracing/motorsports/general automotive/series-affiliated or magazine-affiliated forum you prefer. Just name the forum and the thread and I'll register there and we can pick up where we left off.
There is a Canadian forum I frequent, if you're interested. It is a general automobile forum, therefore it is not restricted to open-wheeled racing or even to motorsports. Let me know...
I've asked "Starter" to be patient 'til we can re-convene in a non-open-wheeled roadracing thread in this forum or in some other forum--so I hope this posting will remain undeleted long enough for me to read your reply.
BTW, I have not found the PM that you sent. Please re-send it, and also consider posting the essentials in your reply to this posting just in case.
Thanks,
The Nethead here
Can you simply tell if Runescape is a great game maplestory powerleveling or not without you becoming a member? The answer to that would be, NO! Well you can make a few predictions about Runescape and see the moral of the game when being a regular user and not a member but becoming a member brings a whole lot of additions to Runescape that you would never see if you were not a member. Being a member of Runescape has so many benefits and I will try to list them all here for you. Runescape tells you them, but I'm going to detail it a few features for you here. runescape money
December 31st, 1969.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethead
The first 4 Wheel Drive Car was the STP Novi #9 in 1964 that drove through the fire and out of the race. Same car in 1965 with Bobby Unser up in both.
USAC GOT RID OF 4-WD BECAUSE OF NO DIRECT AUTOMOTIVE APPLICATION.
Cars that ran 4-wd not turbine
1968: Al Unser see my 1968 thread
1969 Bobby Unser Lola Turbo/offy
Mark Donohue Lola Turbo/offy
Bud Tingelstad Lola Turbo/Ford
There may be some confusion over Al Unser's "Johnny Lightning Specials" in 1970 and 1971 and the eventual Lightning chassis.
Parnelli Jones team took their Lolas for 1969 and pretty much made them into the RWD Lightnings.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
They did not like the 4wd Lolas any more than the Lotus drivers had liked the Lotus 64.
There short life in Formula One was also most no one liked them and they simply were not worth the hassle.
From at least '67. the 4wd drive were allowed to use only 10 inch wide tires up front, till they were banned.
NETHEAD: other than quick replies here, I have been busy, be patient I will write either tonight or tomorrow morning.
Bob
I forgot one of the STP Lotus 64s with Art Pollard did not go far in the race with a turbo offy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Yes about Parnelli but he actually built both the #2 and #15 from the Lola plans as he only had a 1968 Lola on hand and took pocession of the #60 Lotus in 1969. He built a #3 Wedge 4-WD Turbo-Ford in 1969 but it never made speed and never raced.
Remember also this team in 1969 was a Merger of the Mecom Racing Team and the Vel's Parnelli Jones team. In 1968 Mecom had 2 Lola's, a 1968 4-WD and a 1967 that was demolished by Al at the Speedway (See my 1968 Thread)
Parnelli had two cars a Morris Turbo-Ford and a year old Mongoose Ford. After Indy he became part owner of the #60 along with Agajanian, Firestone and STP.
So for 1970 he built from scratch the P.J. Colt.
There were races on ovals and road courses with 4-wd cars in 1968 and 1969. It is interesting that USAC found no direct automotive application to 4-WD but did to turbocharging.
Today there are more 4-WD vehicles than Turbocharged.
(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)