Rally History (part II)

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30th December 2006, 13:24
jrally

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvis

a quick question jorge .... before your informations i have Howlett/Howlett 33th ... the rest of the position looks good. so who are 33th in your classification ?

33 - Mermet-Charpy (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 15.18

Regards
jorge
30th December 2006, 13:58
Giorgio

Very Thanks, Infiniti !!

Giorgio
31st December 2006, 16:24
Giorgio

Swiss rallyes

Someone knows.....

15 marzo 1979 - Criterium Jurassien
Jean Claude Bering - Y.???? Corti

17 marzo 1980 - Criterium Jurassien
Bernard Chenevière - K.???? Oberli
C.???? Blanc - G.???? Bubloz

13 febbraio 1981 - Rally des Neiges
Eric Chapuis - ???? Racine (Porsche 911 SC)
Jean Pierre Balmer - ???? ???? (Porsche 911 SC)
???? Blanc - ???? ???? (Porsche 911 SC)

3 ottobre 1982 - Rally du Vin
Chris Carron - ???? Antille

17 marzo 1983 - Criterium Jurassien
Eric Ferreux - S.???? Audemars

29 settembre 1983 - Rally du Vin
Jean Claude Bering - ???? Giger

15 marzo 1984 - Criterium Jurassien
Eric Ferreux - B.???? Gaudin

30 settembre 1984 - Rally du Vin
Marc Surer - ???? Wyder

15 marzo 1985 - Criterium Jurassien
Jean Marie Carron - L.???? Lattion

25 settembre 1985 - Rally du Valais (ex Rally du Vin)
Jean Krucker - ???? Wyder
???? Oguey - ???? Remy

Thanks in advance

Giorgio
31st December 2006, 16:51
januszsz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giorgio

Someone knows.....

13 febbraio 1981 - Rally des Neiges
Eric Chapuis - SERGE Racine (Porsche 911 SC)

17 marzo 1980 - Criterium Jurassien
CHRISTIAN Blanc - GEORGES Bubloz
I have C.Blanc sometimes with Georges Bubloz, sometimes with Jo Bubloz. Does anybody know are those two different people (brothers?) or "Jo" is a nickname to Georges?

13 febbraio 1981 - Rally des Neiges
CHRISTIAN Blanc - ???? ???? (Porsche 911 SC)

30 settembre 1984 - Rally du Vin
Marc Surer - MICHEL Wyder

1985 - Rally du Valais (ex Rally du Vin)
Jean Krucker - MICHEL Wyder

Nearly the same names Giorgio you were asking about not so long ago...
Regards
Janusz
31st December 2006, 19:25
jrally

Elvis, here the classification of Charlemagne 97

1-Rousselot-Gillet (Ford Escort Cosworth) (A8) 1.15.32
2-Mulvad-Pedersen (Toyota Celica GT4) (A8) + 1.10
3-Nielsen-Jacobsen (Peugeot 306 Maxi) (A7) + 4.29
4-Jensen-Dossing (Mitsubishi Lancer) (N4) +7.16
5-Bayard-Jullien (Toyota Celica) (A8) +7.26
6-Wewers-Ecker (BMW M3) (H19) +8.09
7-Mordacq-Faivre (Ford Escort Cosworth) (N4) + 8.53
8-Kragh-Vestergaard (Ford Sierra Cosworth) (H19) +9.23
9-Van Hoof-Verbeek (Ford Sierra Cosworth) (H19) + 9.26
10-Brink-Bendstrup (Peugeot 306 Maxi) (A7) +9.27
11-Huisman-Van Riemsdijk (Ford Escort Cosworth) (A8) + 9.28
12-Barbara-Barbara (BMW M3) (FA8) + 9.38
13-Kridel-Gitzinger (Ford Escort Cosworth) (A8) + 10.09
14-Montagne-Taboné (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 10.10
15-Bernardi-L'Huguenot (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 10.26
16-Morel-Duchamp (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) +10.51
17-Marty-Curco (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 11.09
18-Fouteret-Legrand (R5 GT Turbo) (FN4) + 11.15
19-Dorsimont-Debois (Opel Astra GSi) (A7) +11.15
20-Davat-Debornes (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 11.41
21-Bernard-Elena (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 11.43
22-Raymond-Barnier (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 11.54
23-Porcheron-Paturel (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 12.15
24-Loeb-Schneider (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N1) + 12.31
25-Achen-Gaspar (Renault Clio Williams) (N3) + 12.35
26-Mannessier-Misiek (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N1) + 12.39
27-Beve-Boudet (Opel Manta) (F12) + 12.43
28-Vialle-Cavalier (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 12.44
29-Macq-Vilain (Peugeot 306 S16) (N3) + 14.11
30-Vlaar-Vlaar (Ford Sierra Cosworth) (N4) +14.26
31-Dhaisne-Mansel (Renault Clio Williams) (N3) + 14.27
32-de Jong-Klumpers (Volvo 240 Turbo) (H19) + 14.37
33-Mermet-Charpy (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 15.18
34-Brasseur-Brasseur (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 15.19
35-Daunas-Fougereuse (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) + 15.23
36-Vives-Arthaud(Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) 15.26
37-Bernard-Witwicki (Ford Escort Cosworth) (N4) + 15.39
38-Vistoli-Passot (Renault Clio Williams) (N3) + 15.39
39-Flamme-Thelliez (Citroen Saxo) (A6) + 15.45
40-Josse-Bachelin (Peugeot 205 GTi) (A6) +15.57
41-Ajoux-Phellipeau (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N2) +16.11
42-Bell-Humphrey (Ford Sierra Cosworth) (A8) +16.45
43-Daniellot-Daniellot (Peugeot 106 Rallye) (N1) +16.19

and the others I've put them here already !
Regards

And to all a Happy New Year
Jorge
31st December 2006, 19:32
jrally

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaps

I know I said I'm finished with 1975, but I still need some confirmations:

L. Carlsson-B. de Jong, Opel Ascona at Monte Carlo, entered by Opel Euro Handler Team or ?

A. Kullang-C.G. Andersson, Opel Ascona, entered at Swedish by Opel Euro Handler Team or Dealer Team Opel Sweden, or something else?

Peugeots entered at Safari as Marshalls(EA)Ltd for O. Andersson, H. Mikkola & T. Makinen. Is this correct?

Peugeots entered at Rally du Maroc as Team Esso Peugeot for H. Mikkola, T. Makinen, B. Consten & P. Pagani. Is this correct?

Lars Carlsson entered by Dealer Opel team Holland
Anders Kullang by Dealer Opel Team Sweden
Safari also Bert Shankland
In Morocco I think Pierre Pagani runs as a private team !

regards
Have a nice year !
jorge
1st January 2007, 14:37
Giorgio

Thank you, Janusz !

Giorgio
1st January 2007, 17:41
kabouter

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrally

Elvis, here the classification of Charlemagne 97

6-Wewers-Ecker (BMW M3) (H19) +8.09

And to all a Happy New Year
Jorge

A small correction, it's Erik Wevers, not Wewers.

And I wish everyone all the best in 2007 as well!
1st January 2007, 22:15
Kaps

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrally

Lars Carlsson entered by Dealer Opel team Holland
Anders Kullang by Dealer Opel Team Sweden
Safari also Bert Shankland
In Morocco I think Pierre Pagani runs as a private team !

regards
Have a nice year !
jorge

Thank you very much jorge

Happy New Year to you and all the forumers!
2nd January 2007, 10:58
elvis

thanks very much jorge and kabouter for your help

for every one , best wish for this new year

elvis
2nd January 2007, 11:48
Giorgio

Someone knows.....

15 marzo 1986 - Criterium Jurassien
Roger Krattiger - R.???? Meier

23 ottobre 1986 - Rally du Valais
Jean Elie Fornage - ???? Bruttin

19 marzo 1987 - Criterium Jurassien
Jean Marie Carron - Fr.???? Moret
M.???? Gall - ???? Moret

21 marzo 1988 - Criterium Jurassien
Philippe Camandona - Ch.???? Guignard

10 aprile 1989 - Criterium Jurassien
Erwin Keller - R.???? Hofmann
O.???? Haberthur - Y.???? Terrani

11 aprile 1990 - Criterium Jurassien
Reynald Menghini - D.???? Antonino
Ch.???? Haberthur - Ch.???? Henchoz

8 aprile 1991 - Criterium Jurassien
R.???? Meoli - F.???? Semprebon

11 aprile 1992 - Criterium Jurassien
N.???? Althaus - D.???? Roth
F.???? Mari - V.???? Mari

Thanks in advance

Giorgio
3rd January 2007, 14:26
januszsz

Back to the dark ages! Anybody knows consecutive numbers and official or original name of Viking Rallies 1953-1959?
Regards
Janusz
3rd January 2007, 15:59
FAL

Marcus Chambers records that during his time at BMC (1954-61) " the Viking Rally became the Norweigian National Rally and no longer a championship event". He implies it was always a winter (snow) rally during that period.
3rd January 2007, 19:43
januszsz

I meant about consecutive numbers of Viking Rallies 1953-59. For example the 1953 edition was the 5th Viking Rally, 1954 was the 6th Viking Rally. Anybody is able to help?
Janusz
3rd January 2007, 20:14
Giorgio

Quote:

Originally Posted by januszsz

I have C.Blanc sometimes with Georges Bubloz, sometimes with Jo Bubloz. Does anybody know are those two different people (brothers?) or "Jo" is a nickname to Georges?
Regards
Janusz

"Jo Bubloz" and "Georges Bubloz" is the same driver.

Regards

Giorgio
4th January 2007, 00:20
jrally

Quote:

Originally Posted by januszsz

I meant about consecutive numbers of Viking Rallies 1953-59. For example the 1953 edition was the 5th Viking Rally, 1954 was the 6th Viking Rally. Anybody is able to help?
Janusz

Sorry Janusz ! Can't help you !

Regards
jorge
4th January 2007, 18:47
RiN

Quote:

Originally Posted by januszsz

Back to the dark ages! Anybody knows consecutive numbers and official or original name of Viking Rallies 1953-1959?
Regards
Janusz

The first "Rally Viking" was held in 1951, and the last one in 1960.
"Rally Viking 1951" "Rally Viking 1952" and so on, is (was) the official norwegian name for the rallies, and the name has later only been used for a few classic rallies in modern times.

Originally it got it's name from the main sponsor, the Norwegian tyre brand "Viking". As the winner of the first rally was the then importer to Norway for Pirelli tyres, he used his win for what it was worth in advertisements and other propaganda, and there were som long faces around :-)

The rally was part of the Europeean Touring Championship, which was the original name of what we now usually call E.. Rally C..., from -53 to -60.
In -57 the rally were called off at halfway because of the death of the Norwegian king Haakon. Some of my sources says it still counted for the ETC, others say not, as the distance covered were too short. I'm still trying to work out what is true.

The first two rallies were held in late August, the rest in September.

RiN
4th January 2007, 20:23
ReWind

Swiss rallying

@ Giorgio: Not much.

Nicolas Althaus (Sui, b. 01 November 1966)

O. Haberthur could - I emphasize COULD - be Olivier Haberthur (Sui, b. 10 February 1963) who is known as a circuit racer. I don't know whether he did rallying, too.
5th January 2007, 07:25
januszsz

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiN

The first "Rally Viking" was held in 1951, and the last one in 1960.
"Rally Viking 1951" "Rally Viking 1952" and so on, is (was) the official norwegian name for the rallies, and the name has later only been used for a few classic rallies in modern times.

Originally it got it's name from the main sponsor, the Norwegian tyre brand "Viking". As the winner of the first rally was the then importer to Norway for Pirelli tyres, he used his win for what it was worth in advertisements and other propaganda, and there were som long faces around :-)

The rally was part of the Europeean Touring Championship, which was the original name of what we now usually call E.. Rally C..., from -53 to -60.
In -57 the rally were called off at halfway because of the death of the Norwegian king Haakon. Some of my sources says it still counted for the ETC, others say not, as the distance covered were too short. I'm still trying to work out what is true.

The first two rallies were held in late August, the rest in September.

RiN

RiN, thank you very much for explanation!
Janusz
5th January 2007, 13:27
Giorgio

Quote:

Originally Posted by januszsz

Back to the dark ages! Anybody knows consecutive numbers and official or original name of Viking Rallies 1953-1959?
Regards
Janusz

24 agosto 1951 - 1° Viking Rally -- first edition
12 settembre 1952 - 2° Viking Rally
9 settembre 1953 - 3° Viking Rally
10 settembre 1954 - 4° Viking Rally
9 settembre 1955 - 5° Viking Rally
14 settembre 1956 - 6° Viking Rally
20 settembre 1957 - 7° Viking Rally
14 settembre 1958 - 8° Viking Rally
18 settembre 1959 - 9° Viking Rally
17 settembre 1960 - 10° Viking Rally
15 settembre 1961 - 11° Viking Rally --- last edition

You have the first 3 for 1951 and 1952 ?

Regards

Giorgio
5th January 2007, 13:28
Giorgio

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReWind

@ Giorgio: Not much.

Nicolas Althaus (Sui, b. 01 November 1966)

O. Haberthur could - I emphasize COULD - be Olivier Haberthur (Sui, b. 10 February 1963) who is known as a circuit racer. I don't know whether he did rallying, too.

Thanks, Rewind !

Giorgio
5th January 2007, 14:31
ReWind

Haberthur

Ch. Haberthur should be Christian Haberthur, perhaps a brother of Olivier.
Look here: http://www.moneyhouse.ch/shab/1999_1...kationen_h.htm
(you have to scroll down just a little bit)
[Note that the real spelling of the surname is Haberthür but in the company's name it is Haberthur]
5th January 2007, 16:08
januszsz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giorgio

24 agosto 1951 - 1° Viking Rally -- first edition
12 settembre 1952 - 2° Viking Rally
9 settembre 1953 - 3° Viking Rally
10 settembre 1954 - 4° Viking Rally
9 settembre 1955 - 5° Viking Rally
14 settembre 1956 - 6° Viking Rally
20 settembre 1957 - 7° Viking Rally
14 settembre 1958 - 8° Viking Rally
18 settembre 1959 - 9° Viking Rally
17 settembre 1960 - 10° Viking Rally
15 settembre 1961 - 11° Viking Rally --- last edition

You have the first 3 for 1951 and 1952 ?

Regards

Giorgio

Thank you Giorgio for additional infos. Unfortunaltely I have nothing on the first two editions and nothing about the last one (11th Rally Viking 1961). Sorry, I can't help you.
Regards
Janusz
5th January 2007, 20:11
Giorgio

I have:

15 settembre 1961 - 11° Viking Rally
Start: ????
Finish: ????

km. 1200
grand touring cars - touring cars

1. Carl Magnus Skogh - Haakon Floeysvik (Saab)
2. Arne Ingier - O.J. Killingmoe (Saab)
3. Rune Larsson - Carl Fredrik Karlan (Volkswagen)

Best regards

Giorgio
5th January 2007, 22:34
januszsz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giorgio

I have:

15 settembre 1961 - 11° Viking Rally
Start: ????
Finish: ????

km. 1200
grand touring cars - touring cars

1. Carl Magnus Skogh - Haakon Floeysvik (Saab)
2. Arne Ingier - O.J. Killingmoe (Saab)
3. Rune Larsson - Carl Fredrik Karlan (Volkswagen)

Best regards

Giorgio

Thank you Giorgio, onca more.
Janusz
6th January 2007, 00:36
jrally

Janusz, here the 1961 result

Result:
Nr. 1. Carl Magnus Skogh/Håkon Fløysvik – Saab 96, 2. Arne Ingier/Ole J. Killingmoe – Saab 96, 3. Rune Larsson/Carl F. Karlan – VW, 4. Leif Samsing/Ivar Eikrem – DKW AU 1000, 5. Edward Gjølberg/Jan Kolstad – Skoda Octavia TS, 6. Karl G. Paulsen/F. Pettersson – Fiat 2100, 7. Oddvar Vargset/Otto Brødholt – Volvo PV 544 S, 8. Leif Vold-Johansen/Willy Brandt – DKW AU 1000 S, 9. Jan E. Martinsen/Finn Rolf Jacobsen – Skoda Octavia, 10. Tore Borg Norén/Bj. Michelsen – Volvo Amazon, 11. Esko Keinänen/Lauri Hurme – Skoda Octavia TS, 12. Simon Engseth/Frode Murstad – Volvo PV 544, 13. Reidar Paulsen/Carl Knudtzen – Fiat 2100, 14. Hermod Spiten/Ragnar Syvertsen – Volvo Amazon, 15. Erik Granerud/Aage Bræin – Volvo PV 544, 16. Odd Thrana/Tord Ulleberg – DKW AU 1000, 17. Jens Jarl Jernes/Finn Egeland – Skoda Octavia Super, 18. Ove Holtmoen/Ivar Olrud – VW, 19. C.J. Høibraaten/Per Stefferud – Volvo Amazon, 20. Bengt Søderstrøm/Ragnar Nitschke – Saab 96, 21. Arne Bjerkheim/Olav Landmark – VW, 22. E. Nagell-Erichsen/Tor Kindem – Mercedes 219, 23. A. Zakariassen/F. Kongsgaarden – Saab 96, 24. Asmund Spiten/Svein Løken – Volvo Amazon, 25. Juul Gulbrandsen/S. Stensrud – Mercedes 220, 26. Chr. Offenberg/Per Gudem – Saab 96, 27. Johan Solem/John Ulleberg – Ford Anglia, 28. Dag Johannessen/Gilbert Hansen – Triumph Herald, 29. Armin Skotvedt/Rolf Nullmeyer – Volvo PV 544, 30. Knut Møystad/Olav haug – Volvo PV 544, 31. Per Hammerich/Gunnar Gåssand – Saab 96, 32. Jahn Tore Leira/Harald Buhs – BMW 700 Sport, 33. Hans E. Olsen/Rolf Johansen – DKW AU 1000 S, 34. J.H. Kristiansen/K. Gulichsen – Skoda Octavia Super, 35. Nils Carlsson/Mario Pavoni – Austin A850, 36. Erik Berger/L. Andersson – Saab 96, 37. Per M. Fjeld/Bjørn Mikalsen – Skoda Octavia Super, 38. Jan B. Kolstad/Trond Schea – Skoda Octavia, 39. Bjørn Froding/Knut Steine – Renault Gordini, 40. Aatos Wassman/Mauri Laakso – Skoda Octavia TS, 41. Hans Lannsjø/Hans Sundin – Austin 850, 42. Carsten A. Johansson/Erik O. Steen – BMW 700 Sport, 43. Knut Hærnes/Hans Hærnes – Volvo PV 544, 44. Kristian Fikkan/Tore Knudsen – Volvo PV 544, 45. Sune Svedén/Alf Appelqvist – Volvo PV 544, 46. Sverre Hansen/Tore Bjerke – Skoda 440, 47. Erik Hellum/Harald Hellum – Volvo PV 544, 48. Leif Høglund/John Rotschild – Saab 96, 49. Engelbrekt Haglund/Erik Olsson – DKW Junior, 50. Olav Hernæs/Knut Griff-Müller – Renault Gordini, 51. Matti Kohlemainen/Heikki Kaarilathi – Skoda Octavia, 52. Knut Faber/Per Siewertz Nielsen – Skoda Octavia, 53. Børje Alhed/Carl Eric Schlägel – Saab 96, 54. K. Gudmundsen/F.J. Sørensen – NSU Prinz.

Class Winners:
Class 1: Jahn Tore Leira/Harald Buhs – BMW 700 Sport
Class 2: Carl Magnus Skogh/Håkon Fløysvik – Saab 96
Class 3: Rune Larsson/Carl F. Karlan – Volkswagen
Class 4: Oddv. Vargset/Otto Brødholt – Volvo PV 544 S
Class 5: Karl G. Paulsen/F. Pettersson – Fiat 2300

regards
jorge
6th January 2007, 10:42
januszsz

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrally

Janusz, here the 1961 result

Result:
Nr. 1. Carl Magnus Skogh/Håkon Fløysvik – Saab 96, 2. ......
.... 54. K. Gudmundsen/F.J. Sørensen – NSU Prinz.

regards
jorge

It's great, Jo! Thank you so much!
Janusz
6th January 2007, 12:09
RiN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giorgio

I have:

15 settembre 1961 - 11° Viking Rally
Start: ????
Finish: ????

km. 1200
grand touring cars - touring cars

1. Carl Magnus Skogh - Haakon Floeysvik (Saab)
2. Arne Ingier - O.J. Killingmoe (Saab)
3. Rune Larsson - Carl Fredrik Karlan (Volkswagen)

Best regards

Giorgio

We discussed this on the old version of this thread about a year ago, but let me repeat once more:

THERE WERE NO RALLY VIKING IN 1961

The rally refered to is "KNA Høstrally" (KNA Autumn-rally), a shorter rally NOT counting towards the ERC.

I understand that some of you have sources that tell otherwise, but remember that one of the biggest problems regarding research of old rallies, is that of all the mis-information that were published at the time. Very much of this is now flowing around on the net as facts.

RiN
6th January 2007, 12:16
RiN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giorgio

24 agosto 1951 - 1° Viking Rally -- first edition
12 settembre 1952 - 2° Viking Rally
9 settembre 1953 - 3° Viking Rally
10 settembre 1954 - 4° Viking Rally
9 settembre 1955 - 5° Viking Rally
14 settembre 1956 - 6° Viking Rally
20 settembre 1957 - 7° Viking Rally
14 settembre 1958 - 8° Viking Rally
18 settembre 1959 - 9° Viking Rally
17 settembre 1960 - 10° Viking Rally
15 settembre 1961 - 11° Viking Rally --- last edition

You have the first 3 for 1951 and 1952 ?

Regards

Giorgio

1951:

1. Per Bergan / Gunnar Kjølstad Citroën 11
2. Walther Carlsen / Knut Solberg Chevrolet
3. Lars Egeberg jr. / Thorleif Petersen Chevrolet
4. Bjarne Røhne / Hans J.Selmer Ford Vedette
5. Arne Hinsværk / Carsten A.Johansson Jowett Javelin
6. Amund Bøhle / Gunnar Helle Dodge
7. Nils Hagen / Aasmund Gulbrandsen Hansa 1500
8. Hans Chr.Henriksen / H.R.Henrichsen Mercury
9. Erik Karlsson / Björn Wennerberg S Austin A90
10. Arnold Busch / Arne Lindholm Fiat 1100

1952:

1. Per Bergan / Gunnar Kjølstad Citroën 11 Normal
2. Carsten A.Johansson / Gunnar Jensen VW
3. Ragnar Busch / Helge Mikkelsen Renault Frégate
4. Hans Ingier / Walther Schjølberg Fiat 1400
5. Bjarne Hægeland / Gunnar Fadum Vauxhall Velox
6. Per Malling / Gunnar L.Orøn Citroën 11 Sport
7. Arnold Busch / Arne Lindholm Fiat 1400
8. Chr. D.Zernickow / E.Christiansen Chevrolet
9. Walther Carlsen / Knut Solberg Tatraplan
10. Birger M.Strand / Harald Stavseth Ford Six

RiN
6th January 2007, 12:23
jrally

I've re-seen and You are COMPLETELY RIGHT, RiN !
It was KNA Høstrally" (KNA Autumn-rally).

Sorry Janusz !

Regards
jorge
6th January 2007, 13:46
Giorgio

Thank you , Rin for the results and the definitive explanation....

Sorry, Janusz for my mistake...

Regards

Giorgio
6th January 2007, 13:49
januszsz

There is no reason to be sorry Jorge. Now it's clear that it was a different rally, but we have it's complete result. Thank you RiN for explanation and for 1951-52 results.
There are two more questions on subjet of rallies consecutive numbers:
1. Rallye Deutschland. In 1953 German's ERC round was Travemunde, then in 1954 Wiesbaden, followed in 1955 by Nurburgring and in 1956 again Wiesbaden, since 1958 I have it named as Rallye Deutschland. Are those 1953-56 rallies completely different events or we can call them Deutschland Rallies or so? Are we able to give them consecutive numbers?
2. Rallye de Geneve. I found in "old" thread that 1956 edition was numbered as 25th and then the nex one in 1957 was 14th. Which one is correctly named.
Regards
Janusz
8th January 2007, 13:59
jrally

Quote:

Originally Posted by januszsz

There is no reason to be sorry Jorge. Now it's clear that it was a different rally, but we have it's complete result. Thank you RiN for explanation and for 1951-52 results.
There are two more questions on subjet of rallies consecutive numbers:
1. Rallye Deutschland. In 1953 German's ERC round was Travemunde, then in 1954 Wiesbaden, followed in 1955 by Nurburgring and in 1956 again Wiesbaden, since 1958 I have it named as Rallye Deutschland. Are those 1953-56 rallies completely different events or we can call them Deutschland Rallies or so? Are we able to give them consecutive numbers?
2. Rallye de Geneve. I found in "old" thread that 1956 edition was numbered as 25th and then the nex one in 1957 was 14th. Which one is correctly named.
Regards
Janusz

My opinion, Janusz, it's although they are all named Rallye of Deutschland they are different rallyes. Wiesbaden has nothing to do with Nurburgring and I think for instance in 68 was the Lyon-Charbonnières-Sttutgart or something like that.
For Geneve I have the 28th edition in 1959.

Regards
jorge
8th January 2007, 16:48
FAL

Rally Deutschland is a very recent creation (by the standards of on here!) and only dates back a few years of the current WRC era. What is now called Deutschland is effectively a combination of the Koln-Ahrweiler and Hunsruck rallies and a few other stages. Both those were International rallies in their own right for many years (and popular with UK crews).
I think the last "iteration" of the "Lyons etc..." rally was "Lyons-Charbonieres-Stuttgart-Solitude".
We have simple names for rallies now!
8th January 2007, 18:15
Kaps

The 1976 WRC season

Can someone please answer these questions about 1976 World Rally Championship;

1.Safari Rally, how many time controls? How many starters (64 or 65?)

2. Acropolis Rally, how many stages?

3. Rallye San Remo, how many stages?

Thank you!
8th January 2007, 19:44
januszsz

Thank you Jorge and FAL!
Janusz
10th January 2007, 14:05
jrally

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaps

Can someone please answer these questions about 1976 World Rally Championship;

1.Safari Rally, how many time controls? How many starters (64 or 65?)

2. Acropolis Rally, how many stages?

3. Rallye San Remo, how many stages?

Thank you!

1.Safari Rally, how many time controls? ???
How many starters (64 or 65?) some say 64, some say 65

(I will make a research later, at night)

2. Acropolis Rally, how many stages? 51 of which 5 cancelled

3. Rallye San Remo, how many stages? 37

regards
jorge
10th January 2007, 18:24
kraut

Rallye Deutschland

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAL

Rally Deutschland is a very recent creation (by the standards of on here!) and only dates back a few years of the current WRC era. What is now called Deutschland is effectively a combination of the Koln-Ahrweiler and Hunsruck rallies and a few other stages.

Thats not quite correct. As jrally posted earlier, from the fifties to the late Seventies the title 'Deutschland-Rallye' has been an additonal title awarded to one chosen German rally, each year for a different event, f.i Rallye Wiesbaden or Stuttgart-Lyon-Charbonnieres or others.

In 1982 the first real Deutschland-Rallye has been organised by ADAC with the aim to be part of World Rallye Championship. This went on until 1984. But the problem was, that there are two different Automoblile-Clubs in Germany, which did not have the best contact to each other. ADAC had more money and influence. But AvD was organising Hunsrück-Rallye, which had been the Top-Rally in Germany in the Eighties. ADAC noticed, that it a World Championship Rally was not within reach at that moment. So in 1985 an European-Championship-event, the Saarland-Rallye had been renamed Deutschland-Rallye in order to rise in the coefficient in ERC. The top-coefficient has been reached within short time. And Rallye Deutschland had been one of the top-ERC-events for a long time. But ERC never had a very big value in Top-class rallying.

In the end of the nineties, when domestic rallying in Germany went down, it was difficult for the organisers of Hunsrück to keep on with the high standard of their rally and to raise the necessary money for it. But still they had the very good contacts to get the permit for the Baumholder stages. So new negotiations between ADAC and AvD had been made, because FIA has signalised, that there is a real chance reaching WRC-honours. In 2001 it has been the first time, that Baumholder had been a vital part of Rallye Deutschland. In 2002 they had reached their aim to be part of WRC.

Rallye Köln-Ahrweiler never has counted to any championship and never had been connected to Rallye Deutschland in any way. It had been a highly rated no-pacenote-event mostly on forest stages until 1987 and now it is a special stage tarmac rallye for historic cars (called Youngtimer)
10th January 2007, 22:34
FAL

I think we are at cross purposes in use of language. In tracking the national name being attached to a country's premier rally as we understand it today (which I think is what the record keepers on here are trying to do), is not the current Deutschland Rally really the only one that warrants the name?
No one I knew who did Koln-Arhweiler would have described it as a forest rally by our standards. Certainly it used some unsurfaced roads in the vineyards (which is why UK crews liked it, as it was not a pure tarmac rally). It does not translate directly into one day of the current tarmac Rally Deutschland but we tend to think in terms of the way a rally in a particular region disappears and another (or part of a WRC rally) emerges in its place.
The 24 Uren van Ieper was effectively Belgium's premier rally for many many years (and a coefficient 20 ERC round) despite what other Belgian organisers such as Boucles de Spa might have wished. When Belgium was looking at bidding for a WRC round it would have effectively been Ieper and Rallye de Wallonie combined.

I could not agree the ERC never had a big value in top class rallying. Until the WRC for drivers was created (1977?) the ECR was the only championship in town. Throughout the classic rally era of the 60s there were few events outside Europe that attracted manufacturers and if they wanted championships to advertise they had to contest the ERC. The results were important then. Only later did it fall into much less significance, contested only by teams that were rarely full "works" (and who even notices it today?).
11th January 2007, 00:06
Kaps

Thanks jorge!

To continue with 1976;
Here's what I managed to reconstruct for Lancia's participation in that season:

1.Monte Carlo
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF

Team Chardonnet(?):
Darniche-Mahe Lancia Stratos HF

2.Swedish
Lancia Alitalia:
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Lampinen-Hertz Lancia Stratos HF

3.Portugal
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF

4.Safari
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Preston jr.-Lyall Lancia Stratos HF

5. Acropolis
Lancia Alitalia:
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF
Pregliasco-Garzoglio Lancia Stratos HF

6. Maroc
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
(only works Lancia?)

7.1000 Lakes
no Lancias?

8. San Remo
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari- Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF
"Tony"-Mannini Lancia Stratos HF (works entry?)

9. Corse
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Team Chardonnet(?):
Darniche-Mahe Lancia Stratos HF

Serpaggi-Subrini Lancia Stratos HF(entrant?)

10. RAC
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF

jorge, (or anyone else who might know) is this complete/correct?
PS I'm only interested in works and most important privateer entries.
Thank you.

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