Could you imagine people rioting in London if Scotland declared independance? :s
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Could you imagine people rioting in London if Scotland declared independance? :s
I don't need to argue, I'm too stubborn in my belief and I don't mind if somebody think different, we don't have same life experiences. Don't know the peculiar case of your country but in ours at the end of the WW II communists were so many they could have their congress in an elevator. So no matter how hard I try I can't see the "objective reasons " that dictated the horrible 50 years of communism. I can see only 3 guys meeting in Yalta and playing a bit with Europe's map. Then I was forced to take part at meetings of thousands of people in the honour of the dictator. I thought " what if a guy will shout something against him or take a gun and shoot him ? ". But the scowled faces of the guys infiltrated among us calmed me down. However the thing became reality, but before we had to have the Malta agreement. And the dream of my life became true through a production made in Hollywood with the script written in Moscow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
No matter what cards played Kosovo after WWII, if USA didn't want it ,the independence would never haver happened. And they didn't want it because kosovars are right ( no offence, but how many americans know about Kosovo ? ) but because they wanted another spur in Serbia's coast ( that is to say Russia ).
In the 80's they tried a similar thing in Afghanistan by helping the mudjahedins. After 10 years they harvested the fruits in the person of Bin Laden. Let's hope this time they'll be more lucky.
I was pleased to see Emir Kusturica at last night's meeting. Although to my knowledge he'a a muslim bosniac.
Depends if people there feel they have ownership over the land I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Personally I think the overiding reason for this going through so easily was Serbia's dealings in ethnic cleansing in Croatia and Bosnia. What better for a reason for a minority to ask for independance than as protection from a country which has a track record of ethnic cleansing.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the one definite upshot of this whole deal. Yet another eastern European country which will soon be able to compete in Eurovision! Isn't that the best? :uhoh:
I can see their votes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Greece, Cyprus, Spain, Russia, Romania : O points and lots of boo -s.
Uk: 1 point ( they were our friends but the song was awful as usually )
Slovenia: 2 points
Croatia: 3 points
Bosnia:4 points ( they got muslim guys )
Serbia:5 points ( don't deserve them but the guys from Mitrovica still has the right to vote )
Bulgaria:6 points ( nice guys; pretented to don't recognize our state but finally changed their minds)
France:7 points
Turkey: 8 points
Macedonia:10 points.
And finally, our 12 points go to....our brothers from Albania!!!!!!
We might know it when it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Back to what happens in Serbia.
Are the Americans and some of the Europeans happy with bringing violence back to the country?!
How on Earth did they think that this might unfold in a different way?
I just read that Russia considers using military force in case NATO and EU countries decide to ignore the previously taken UNO decisions.
This is shaping up like a nightmare.
It seems strange to me that independence is allowed for Kosovo, given the fact that once again instability would be brought to the region, yet the Kurds aren't allowed their own homeland.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin
Yet again, double standards shown by the west. Wasn't one of the reasons given by the coallition of the willing (gullible) for the illegial invasion of Iraq was to protect Kurds in the north of the country that had been mistreated during Saddam's rule?
Let's just say that someone (we all know who we are talking about) has an interest to create instability in the Balkans. What I don't understand in EU position in accepting this instability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
The only conclusion I can come from reading your post is that it's a pity that Russia didn't get kicked more while it was down. Russia is a pain in the arse and they're concerned with no one else but themselves. At least with the US they can sometimes claim they've done some of their things for the good of the world or for people other than themselves. Vladimir is an evil little prick and we all know it. If it wasn't for gas Russia would be a shadow of it's former self and the world as a whole would be better off (perhaps not in an energy sense though). The sooner renewable energy takes off the sooner Russia can sod off and play in their own icy sandbox with themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I thought the same when I was a kidQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Now I come to the oldies words: either one or another, the same devil. . :laugh:
Better the devil not on your doorstep though ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
That's impossible. This devil is ubique. And likes to play the role of the universal gendarme. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Perhaps. Would you not like to try a different devil next time though? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
I'll second gadjo_dilo, they are the same, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Russians also did good things for the World, I doubt that American's would have won the WWII if it wasn't for the Russians destroying the Germans in Europe.
They all have bombers and plane carriers! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I agree about winning WW2 but in the end it's what you do after you win a war that decides whether you're liked or not. How many Eastern Europeans resent what happened to them because of the USSR after WW2 and how many Western Europeans have the same feelings towards the US and the UK :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
In our history we'd already exchanged a few devils so I don't rule out a new one in the future. At the end of the day every empire raised, flourished and had a decline. Everything is mortal except for God. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
In fact it was mr. Churchill the one who traced the infamous line that divided Europe :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
And we also blame USA for not helping us. And for letting USSR to do that to us. Try to see an excellent movie that won an award at Cannes last year: California Dreamin' ( endless ). Not only it's an excellent comedy but you'll understand our feelings.
At the end of the day there were reasons the US didn't come steaming in with the cavalry though aren't there :) If you look deeper into things the USA did help you by financially running the USSR into the ground with the arms race. Credit where credit is due I say! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
If you are trying to say the US/UK should have pushed back the Soviets from Eastern Europe? Come on, we'd just endured 6 years of total war, we didn't have the capability to do anything.
Most of them would be jealous Australian bar staff... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Sorry but I don't delude myself they did it for us. It was in USA's interest to weaken its rival. In the meantime we weren't patiently waiting the right moment. We were deported, arrested, tortured, living in cold and dark, etc. Some of us survived, many of us died in the communist prisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Of course not. It was easier to sacrifice some unknown people from the east. Who had to endure only other 50 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Now seriously, I can't understand how USA as a winner of the war accepted the situation.
Are you 100% sure that the US knew for sure what was going to happen to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Even if they did what solution was there in the short term? I didn't have to live through most of it but a cold war is usually better than a World War in my humble opinion.
I think you should go and watch Charlie Wilson's War. It'll make you realise that the USA's intentions aren't always so selfish but you will see that their execution sucks at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
I can't possibly begin to understand what it would be like to live in a county where you could be deported, arrested, tortured, living in the cold and dark. I'd be lying if I said I feel your pain or something empty like that. I've always been a free person thankfully so for me to say I feel what you felt would be a straight up lie.
I think in the end what happened was the lesser of two evils for the world in general. A lot of people were tortured and killed but for a much much higher number of people the cold war scarcely interupted their lives at all. I don't see how out and out war can be preferable to that for the whole world.
Accepted is a bit strong, tollerated would be closer to the mark. I go back to my previous point, it's not like the USA or UK could have done anything about it even if they had wanted to. The only way to have solved the problem was to go to war with the Soviets, a war they could quite probably have lost, then where does it leave us?Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Shut up comrade Mark or the commisars will come and shoot us!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
At least they could have warned us to stop fighting ourselves. Many people organised a resistance in the mountains hoping we'll get help. They finished tragically. So did their families.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
OK, It's complicated but don't say they were angels.
P.S. Must go now. Too bad, the debate has become hot. A nice weekend to everyone!!!
Be assured that the resistance helped in the bringing the USSR down. Having to build nukes was expensive but so was having to supress the resistance movements. Everyone played their part. The Western World were just lucky that their part was a bit cleaner than yours. I'm sure if the situations were reversed you wouldn't have come in to save us at great cost of life to everyone and I think this is the only sensible way to think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Have a good weekend :up:
If that's a film, forget it. I'm stupid but not naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Largely based on facts :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Basically about the US supporting the Afghan's in pushing the Russians but ****ing up in the end ;)
In fact I don't blame you for non-intervention. I can understand it. But for the way your leaders decided for our lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
And please let me go home. I should have been gone for 10 min.
Go home! You're a free man aren't you? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Like I said it's impossible for me to put myself in your position so I shall try to do so no further :)
Ummm, actually no :) . A free person, yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
That's worth discussing more. Why would they riot, or why wouldn't they? And is it a good thing or a bad thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Twenty years ago I couldn't imagine the end of the cold war and then Bing! in the next few years things changed so much.
I think it's important to remember that, in 1945, there was simply no possibility of the Western Allies doing anything about the actions of the Soviets. They were still our allies, after all, and the Western leaders still harboured genuine ambitions of reaching a peaceful agreement with the USSR about Europe's post-war borders. For most of the period that followed, Western leaders were concerned about the prospect of escalation to nuclear conflict that any provocation of the Soviets might have caused. This (amongst other factors, admittedly) is why the erection of the Berlin Wall did not lead to a stronger Western reaction, despite the fact that it was an appalling affront to human rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
The unfortunate reality is that in any conflict, we never have the advantage of the hindsight that history later teaches us. We will never know if pressure on Soviet Russia could have changed history for the better or for the worse.
To coin a term used in the thread, we are often the devil regardless of which course of action is taken in any conflict. The only thing that changes is which parties will consider other parties the devil.
I cannot speak with certainty over what might have happened, but I suspect that the consideration of a nuclear escalation was a primary thought in any western countries mind. Having been born shorty after the Cuban Missle Crisis, the nuclear threat was still very real when I joined the military. Once again if we had the benefit of hindsight, it may be possible that if the US continued the Pacific campaign without the use of the nukes, the war and that threat may have ended without bringing to reality the brutal destruction that these devices bring upon all people. I think this was the real "devil" that this war brought to light, and the lives of all of us have changed because of it.
As pointed out by gadjo_dilo, neither the US or western powers were angels in all of this. Our actions as with most countries were primarily in the interest of our countries and not all countries. Just as one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, I suspect depending on your point of view often one mans devil is anothers angel. Even the difference between good and evil often becomes complex.
This could get interesting:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin
Mark this is clearly our fault!! Just ask any Serb or EKIQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Ha! I'm back and I'm less nervous than last week. After all, spring is in the air and yesterday we celebrated a sort of local Valentine's Day.
Now that I'm relaxed I agree with those who say "that was no possibility of the Western Allies doing anything about the actions of the Soviets". But in these circimstances don't take out our eyes with things like "the USA did help you by financially running the USSR into the ground with the arms race". The real thing is that USA don't help anybody, they follow their own interest and sometimes it may overlap with the interest of others.
We don't owe anything to them. But they had a moral obligation to us.
Unfortunately love wasn't in the air for all the guys in my country. A few idiots have already waved the flags of a so-called Szekely Land right in the middle of the country. Of course they'll end up by eating a big s*** but their shameless atitude is quite annoying.
Yeah, if the citizens of a particular province or region without sufficient resource we can exploit from, choose to govern themselves we would better let it go. :D