Israel refuses peace negotiations

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

I'm siding with Eki here. Since when do you hear of Finland pissing people off to the point where they want to kill ordinary Finnish citizens?

The Palestinians don't have issues with Israel because they believe they've got a good deal out of being displaced by Israel and that Israel treats them fairly now.....

---

Same here, funny how someone think "fundamentalist terrorism comes your way" randomly just like that.

Yeah, like the people on the 747 over Lockerbie, or the peoples on the train in madrid, or the people on Kuta beach on Bali, or the people on the subway in tokyo (sarin), or the people in the Oklahaoma building.
Terroists do not care for who they kill, the cause justifies anything.
Hence we can not ever accept it.

It is another question that we can neither can accept states which takes their right to do as they will, but they should not be fought with terrorism.

Yes but there's a difference between attacks like the Oklahoma and Tokyo attacks and things like September 11 and attacks on Israel.

That kid went a bit crazy in Finland a little while ago but there's no reason to suspect that there are more of these attacks planned.

When places like Australia, UK and USA go pick a fight with a religion then people are going to get narked and the attacks are going to continue till these people don't feel like they're threatened anymore.

Innocent people and countries that didn't do anything wrong will always get caught up in the crossfire but by and large it's places like the US and Israel that go and poke the hornets nest on a regular basis that will get stung. Regular fundamentalist attacks don't just happen randomly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magnus

The palestinians have issues with Israel because they do not want them there at all; as said before they do not even accept Israel as as state in the first place. So which side is the better, the one which as least accepts the existence of the other state or the one that doesn´t?

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.
Maybe it was wrong to place the Jew nation where it is to day in the first place, but now the decision is made by the UN, and very few opposes it. one group is some palestinians, who, like aother terrorist groups throughout the world doesn´t care if civilians are killed during the process.

Israel for sure is doing a lot of things the wrong way, but the state itself must be accepted by the palestinians, otherwise the debacle will never end.

The big problem for israel is that the state is quiestioned by other Arabic states in the area aswell, one of them being Ahmadinejad who has even questioned the holocaust. If it wasn´t for the support from UN and USA Israel would probably not exist toady.

The palestininans must accept that Israel will never go away, and we must accept it asweel. Then a proper discussion can take place.

---

But the issue goes back to after WW2 when the Jewish people got the sympathy vote and got given their own state. At that stage the UN, USA and UK didn't recognise the Palestinians as a people deserving of their own state and caused the problem then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magnus

The palestinians have issues with Israel because they do not want them there at all; as said before they do not even accept Israel as as state in the first place. So which side is the better, the one which as least accepts the existence of the other state or the one that doesn´t?

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.
Maybe it was wrong to place the Jew nation where it is to day in the first place, but now the decision is made by the UN, and very few opposes it. one group is some palestinians, who, like aother terrorist groups throughout the world doesn´t care if civilians are killed during the process.

Israel for sure is doing a lot of things the wrong way, but the state itself must be accepted by the palestinians, otherwise the debacle will never end.

The big problem for israel is that the state is quiestioned by other Arabic states in the area aswell, one of them being Ahmadinejad who has even questioned the holocaust. If it wasn´t for the support from UN and USA Israel would probably not exist toady.

The palestininans must accept that Israel will never go away, and we must accept it asweel. Then a proper discussion can take place.

---

Which Palestinians are you talking about? Fatah under Arafat recognised Israel and its right to exist under the Oslo peace accords. Hamas claims it doesn't but in practical terms since it negotiates with the Israeli state on a daily basis regarding banal things like electricity, water and refuse dumping does too.

There's a difference between removing Israeli presence from the Occupied Territories and removing Israel altogether. Fatah wants the former but not the latter. Hamas claims to want both but doesn't do much to do the latter. The fringe groups also want both and do everything to fulfil both their targets and are responsible for derailing many previous peace processes.

BTW Iran isn't an Arabic state. If you claimed that it was in the middle of Teheran you wouldn't last very long.

Israel negotiates with Fatah, knows it ought to negotiate with Hamas but will use any provocation by the fringe elements to stop any peace process going on. Not only that but it engages in collective punishment to harm all Palestinians when a handful of teenagers are firing rockets into Israel. That is no way to go for peace either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rani

That's probably the media coverage you consume talking.

---

Thats not a fair view of European press coverage of the Middle East, or at least British.

Both my Jewish and Arabic friends claim organisations like the BBC are institutionally anti-Semetic or Arabic. IMO thats great. If both sides feel that the news is biased towards the opposing side then thats proof to me that its relatively neutral. Given the barbarity of whats going on both sides ought to feel offended by fair reporting.

I've seen American news programmes reporting about Israeli bombing within the West Bank carefully omitting the number of children that were killed or news from Arabic channels that does the opposite with Israeli victims (Al-Jazeera being a notable exception). I'm not for that I'm afraid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Innocent people and countries that didn't do anything wrong will always get caught up in the crossfire but by and large it's places like the US and Israel that go and poke the hornets nest on a regular basis that will get stung. Regular fundamentalist attacks don't just happen randomly.

---

Religion is only a tool in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict though. For the most part of its history the Palestinian military effort has been carried through by the PLO which renamed itself Fatah recently. They are a pretty secular organisation claiming to represent all Palestinians whether Christian or Muslim and its open to both. Only recently have overtly Muslim groups like Hamas emerged as real power brokers.

IMO the real reason why we find what Israel is doing offensive is that European states have spent much of the last century disengaging from empires while Israel is clearly building a new one in the Occupied Territories. Not only that but the Israelis are pretty brutal (and the Palestinians brutal back) and have learnt nigh on nothing in over 40 years of occupying the Palestinians, thus making a royal hash of it.

Compare that to the Americans in Iraq. From 2003 onwards they've faced a massive insurgency. Many of their early decisions would have been laughable if they weren't so catastrophic. They totally ignored advice from both within and without from people with experience of effectively stamping your authority on a country and people who both don't want you there and are of a totally different race/religion/culture/political affiliation.

What have they done since 2003? In 4 years they've assessed and re-assessed everything they've done. They've learnt to use local aid, local political initiatives to try and calm things down. They've adapted tactics to suit the enemy. End result? The insurgency in Iraq is much quieter and some groups like the Sunnis have effectively switched sides to be with the Yanks. A lot of Iraqis would rather trust an American unit than an Iraqi. The transformation in tactics and results is obvious.

The Israelis have been in the Occupied Territories 10 times longer than the Americans have been in Iraq. Its pretty clear their tactics are failing. The violence gets worse, more Israeli soldiers and civilians are getting killed. Israel is ostracised in the international community. More and more Israeli and US taxmoney is spent trying to pacify a community that simply isn't doing as its told. The Israeli response has been merely to crank up the violence. Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism didn't work 40 years ago yet the Israelis are still doing it. Hassling and brutalising Palestinians at checkpoints didn't work 30 years ago so why carry on? One wants to knock on the forehead of Israeli generals and politicians and ask "is anybody home?". The Israelis really need to question the path they've taken over the past 40 years.

Much of it is because the Israelis told themselves they weren't really going to hang onto the Occupied Territories for too long whilst making their presence permanent through settlement building. Using brute force is fine if you're only going to be around for a few months/years. Any longer than that and some kind of compassionate method is essential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

But the issue goes back to after WW2 when the Jewish people got the sympathy vote and got given their own state. At that stage the UN, USA and UK didn't recognise the Palestinians as a people deserving of their own state and caused the problem then.

---

Thats not quite true either.

While the Holocaust caused revulsion when it came to concrete actions none of the main powers did much to establish a Jewish state. The Brits tried to keep the peace in Palestine with both the Jews and Arabs trying to kill each other and the Brits. Eventually the Brits got fed up, pulled out and left them to it.

The Jews who included many seasoned fighters from WW2 beat the Arabs and took control of whats known as Israel. Many of the Arab armies that fought the Jewish state then were trained, armed and sometimes led by British officers, a hangover from Empire. A lot of Palestinians left then partly because they were told to by the Arabs so they could return after Israel was wiped out and partly because they feared Israeli atrocities.

The Americans couldn't really be bothered about Israel though the American Jewish lobby sent a lot of funding and emigrants. Stalin sent Israel some support because he thought it was a way of hurting Britain.

In other words, Israel was established DESPITE the US and the UK, not because of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dylan H

Religion is only a tool in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict though. For the most part of its history the Palestinian military effort has been carried through by the PLO which renamed itself Fatah recently. They are a pretty secular organisation claiming to represent all Palestinians whether Christian or Muslim and its open to both. Only recently have overtly Muslim groups like Hamas emerged as real power brokers.

IMO the real reason why we find what Israel is doing offensive is that European states have spent much of the last century disengaging from empires while Israel is clearly building a new one in the Occupied Territories. Not only that but the Israelis are pretty brutal (and the Palestinians brutal back) and have learnt nigh on nothing in over 40 years of occupying the Palestinians, thus making a royal hash of it.

Compare that to the Americans in Iraq. From 2003 onwards they've faced a massive insurgency. Many of their early decisions would have been laughable if they weren't so catastrophic. They totally ignored advice from both within and without from people with experience of effectively stamping your authority on a country and people who both don't want you there and are of a totally different race/religion/culture/political affiliation.

What have they done since 2003? In 4 years they've assessed and re-assessed everything they've done. They've learnt to use local aid, local political initiatives to try and calm things down. They've adapted tactics to suit the enemy. End result? The insurgency in Iraq is much quieter and some groups like the Sunnis have effectively switched sides to be with the Yanks. A lot of Iraqis would rather trust an American unit than an Iraqi. The transformation in tactics and results is obvious.

The Israelis have been in the Occupied Territories 10 times longer than the Americans have been in Iraq. Its pretty clear their tactics are failing. The violence gets worse, more Israeli soldiers and civilians are getting killed. Israel is ostracised in the international community. More and more Israeli and US taxmoney is spent trying to pacify a community that simply isn't doing as its told. The Israeli response has been merely to crank up the violence. Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism didn't work 40 years ago yet the Israelis are still doing it. Hassling and brutalising Palestinians at checkpoints didn't work 30 years ago so why carry on? One wants to knock on the forehead of Israeli generals and politicians and ask "is anybody home?". The Israelis really need to question the path they've taken over the past 40 years.

Much of it is because the Israelis told themselves they weren't really going to hang onto the Occupied Territories for too long whilst making their presence permanent through settlement building. Using brute force is fine if you're only going to be around for a few months/years. Any longer than that and some kind of compassionate method is essential.

---

Pretty much. As much as you want to criticise the Americans I feel their goals for the Iraqi people are genuine. Israel seems one month to make a genuine effort to be nice to the Palestinians and then the next month they're pissing them off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dylan H

The Israelis have been in the Occupied Territories 10 times longer than the Americans have been in Iraq. Its pretty clear their tactics are failing. The violence gets worse, more Israeli soldiers and civilians are getting killed. The Israeli response has been merely to crank up the violence. Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism didn't work 40 years ago yet the Israelis are still doing it. Hassling and brutalising Palestinians at checkpoints didn't work 30 years ago so why carry on? One wants to knock on the forehead of Israeli generals and politicians and ask "is anybody home?". The Israelis really need to question the path they've taken over the past 40 years.

---

I haven't heard of any "Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism". It's true houses of mass murderers (suicide bombers- I hope you agree with me that blowing yourself up in the middle of a shopping mall is murder and not military action) were destroyed. The way you portrayed it is not true.
I stood at a checkpoint like you mentioned near Jerusalem as a soldier. I NEVER hassled NOR brutalised anyone. I did check for explosives, I did search for weapons and I did check ID's. Like it or not I also treated people with respect and dignity, for the simple fact that I know I'm not better than them in any way. BTW a friend of mine from my squad almost got himself killed but fortunately he caught a person hiding a 12 inch blade in his coat before he got a chance to use it.

I honestly believe that if a viable chance for peace (and by that I mean a viable partner) presented itself, Israel would jump at the opportunity. This was proven in 94 in Oslo and in 2000 in Camp David.