2021 Race 7 - French Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Do you remember what it was like at the end of the Schumacher era? It was kind of like this actually. Everyone thought Ferrari would bounce back, but somehow they didn't. Renault sneaked away with two championship wins.

I think there have been some fundamental changes to the Mercedes chassis. For a start, it now has a rack. Converting a low rack car to a high rack car would certainly mess with the fundamentals of the original architecture of the car. We hear of chassis swapping and performance characteristics of the car have obviously dropped below what we saw at Barcelona. They are trying new things and may well find an answer at some point.

But it would not be respectful to Redbull to not acknowledge that they are genuinely the faster car and Mercedes are playing catchup. If Redbull wins at Paul Ricard, they are very much set to win the triple header. Which would effectively set the stage for a Redbull and Verstappen championship win.

This is not a drill, this is real.

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I think you mean 'rake' which I agree most likely will have messed with their core design but it seems losing their DAS has also set them back.
For me it is a pretty obvious attempt to slow Merc down... and it's clearly working.

It has always been this way in F1.. but is it wrong to manipulatively knobble dominant teams this way?
As a racing fan first and foremost I love seeing the current extremely close competition, so I accept that it probably has to be this way to remain a spectacle and not a borefest.
However, I can also understand why that might upset those who are strictly fans of individual drivers or teams feeling they are being conspired against.. well, because they are really. :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Do you remember what it was like at the end of the Schumacher era? It was kind of like this actually. Everyone thought Ferrari would bounce back, but somehow they didn't. Renault sneaked away with two championship wins.

I think there have been some fundamental changes to the Mercedes chassis. For a start, it now has a rake. Converting a low rake car to a high rake car would certainly mess with the fundamentals of the original architecture of the car. We hear of chassis swapping and performance characteristics of the car have obviously dropped below what we saw at Barcelona. They are trying new things and may well find an answer at some point.

But it would not be respectful to Redbull to not acknowledge that they are genuinely the faster car and Mercedes are playing catchup. If Redbull wins at Paul Ricard, they are very much set to win the triple header. Which would effectively set the stage for a Redbull and Verstappen championship win.

This is not a drill, this is real.

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Is that Red Bull in that can , or is it Koolaid ?
Sure looks real , don't it ?

Surprising that Max managed to keep pole. I think Merc still have the race pace overall, and will be easier on the tires. But with this track being harder to pass on, it might come down to who gets the better starts. Setup has RB a bit quicker on the straight line stuff, which might make it hard for Merc to get by on the straights. It might also give Sergio a shot if anyone fumbles in front of him.

Good to see the Mclaren's and Ferrari's staying in the top fight. And well done by Alonso and Gasly as well.

I'm not one on conspiracy theories myself. I simply think RB clawed closer to Merc, and has the chance to win at times. All the teams knew about the rules changes, and Merc has had a massive budget in past years. That alone might have hurt them, but like any era of F1 sooner or later the top teams are challenged.


I don't know where the get the data, and assume it's based on fastest sectors and such, but the one graphic showed that overall Max is driving more consistently than Lewis and getting a larger percentage of the most out of the car. And really that would be no shock... RB have had to fight harder to try to get the car up the grid, and as such Merc drivers have been able to rely on car pace more.


Either way, it looks like the battle may stay close for now. And more than anything, that makes it worth watching even on the usually boring circuits such as this one. I want the championship battles to be just that... battles. The teams seem really tight, and I hope it stays this way for a while, hopefully the entire season.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I think you mean 'rake' which I agree most likely will have messed with their core design but it seems losing their DAS has also set them back.
For me it is a pretty obvious attempt to slow Merc down... and it's clearly working.

It has always been this way in F1.. but is it wrong to manipulatively knobble dominant teams this way?
As a racing fan first and foremost I love seeing the current extremely close competition, so I accept that it probably has to be this way to remain a spectacle and not a borefest.
However, I can also understand why that might upset those who are strictly fans of individual drivers or teams feeling they are being conspired against.. well, because they are really. :/

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Well, l am about fair racing. I am enjoying the current close racing, to be honest. But we cannot ignore the fact that this is the case because Mercedes was compromised by the regulations. The chassis regulation was introduced along with the development token system. Which effectively placed Mercedes in a very tight spot. They had to make a difficult decision of whether to spend all of the tokens on a complete redesign of the chassis or use them sparingly over the season. Mind you, a redesign of the chassis was forbidden as well remember.

This is where l feel that it was a bit unfair. BTW it is not about being a fan of a team or driver, but about fairness. I can see they are hurting and finding the consequences of the regulation hard to deal with. Aston Martin is worst hit by this. And this was a team that nearly knicked 3rd place last season. The whole thing looks artificial but it is exciting isn't it. Who cares, we fans are dumb anyway.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Surprising that Max managed to keep pole. I think Merc still have the race pace overall, and will be easier on the tires. But with this track being harder to pass on, it might come down to who gets the better starts. Setup has RB a bit quicker on the straight line stuff, which might make it hard for Merc to get by on the straights. It might also give Sergio a shot if anyone fumbles in front of him.

Good to see the Mclaren's and Ferrari's staying in the top fight. And well done by Alonso and Gasly as well.

I'm not one on conspiracy theories myself. I simply think RB clawed closer to Merc, and has the chance to win at times. All the teams knew about the rules changes, and Merc has had a massive budget in past years. That alone might have hurt them, but like any era of F1 sooner or later the top teams are challenged.


I don't know where the get the data, and assume it's based on fastest sectors and such, but the one graphic showed that overall Max is driving more consistently than Lewis and getting a larger percentage of the most out of the car. And really that would be no shock... RB have had to fight harder to try to get the car up the grid, and as such Merc drivers have been able to rely on car pace more.


Either way, it looks like the battle may stay close for now. And more than anything, that makes it worth watching even on the usually boring circuits such as this one. I want the championship battles to be just that... battles. The teams seem really tight, and I hope it stays this way for a while, hopefully the entire season.

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Sorry buddy, it is not a conspiracy theory. When we do the Math and analyse relative progression from the last three seasons, it is not hard to see that Redbull has jumped a massive step ahead this season. Clearly well off the normal trajectory of their progression curve. And the progress is not because they have come up with a better chassis than they had last season. Remember, the chassis was frozen last season. So they are effectively racing the 2020 cars. Also, it is inconceivable to say that Honda has suddenly closed the gap of the performance of their engine to that of Mercedes.

The only reason Redbull is closer to the Mercedes [chassis that won the 2020 season btw], is because the regulation clearly compromised the Mercedes chassis. It is not because Redbull has suddenly become better than Mercedes. But simply because the regulations favour their particular chassis. In this circumstance, the win of the championship would not hold the same level of reverence as a normal championship win. Certainly not as highly as we would consider the Renault defeat of Ferrari in Alonso's hands in 2005/6. Or even the Brawn title win that made Jenson Button a driver world champion. On both of those occasions, the teams [Renault, Brawn] worked their arse off finding a way to get the edge to get ahead of the entire grid.

What we are watching now is like being given the exam questions and answers ahead of the exam date. The racing is great l admit but there is an ethical flaw with it. How they can call this a proper challenge is proposterous to say the least. It looks and feels fixed. Which l think ought to be illegal.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Sorry buddy, it is not a conspiracy theory. When we do the Math and analyse relative progression from the last three seasons, it is not hard to see that Redbull has jumped a massive step ahead this season. Clearly well off the normal trajectory of their progression curve. And the progress is not because they have come up with a better chassis than they had last season. Remember, the chassis was frozen last season. So they are effectively racing the 2020 cars. Also, it is inconceivable to say that Honda has suddenly closed the gap of the performance of their engine to that of Mercedes.

The only reason Redbull is closer to the Mercedes [chassis that won the 2020 season btw], is because the regulation clearly compromised the Mercedes chassis. It is not because Redbull has suddenly become better than Mercedes. But simply because the regulations favour their particular chassis. In this circumstance, the win of the championship would not hold the same level of reverence as a normal championship win. Certainly not as highly as we would consider the Renault defeat of Ferrari in Alonso's hands in 2005/6. Or even the Brawn title win that made Jenson Button a driver world champion. On both of those occasions, the teams [Renault, Brawn] worked their arse off finding a way to get the edge to get ahead of the entire grid.

What we are watching now is like being given the exam questions and answers ahead of the exam date. The racing is great l admit but there is an ethical flaw with it. How they can call this a proper challenge is proposterous to say the least. It looks and feels fixed. Which l think ought to be illegal.

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You can and obviously will believe whatever you want. Merc has fumbled with the ball on a few occasions this year, but they are hardly a sub standard car. What's hurting them the most right now is that they are inconsistent, and not getting both drivers well into the points on a regular basis. If not for the Monaco disaster, they would still be easily in the lead of the WCC. And to add to that, Baku was an opportunity not taken. But I'm sure the regs changes caused the magic button to be activated.

The floor and aero changes were expected by many to hurt the high rake cars as much if not more than the low rake cars. Merc has the pace, but is struggling to put it all together and always get the tires working quickly. The fact that they are not dominating out of the box doesn't make a conspiracy if you ask me.

As for the title run and the chance to break it, RB would IMHO be just as deserving as Renault were when they beat Ferrari. You can pound the drum of your opinion all you want, but at the end of the day it's just that. You are entitled to your opinion, but not the opinion of others.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

You can and obviously will believe whatever you want. Merc has fumbled with the ball on a few occasions this year, but they are hardly a sub standard car. What's hurting them the most right now is that they are inconsistent, and not getting both drivers well into the points on a regular basis. If not for the Monaco disaster, they would still be easily in the lead of the WCC. And to add to that, Baku was an opportunity not taken. But I'm sure the regs changes caused the magic button to be activated.

The floor and aero changes were expected by many to hurt the high rake cars as much if not more than the low rake cars. Merc has the pace, but is struggling to put it all together and always get the tires working quickly. The fact that they are not dominating out of the box doesn't make a conspiracy if you ask me.

As for the title run and the chance to break it, RB would IMHO be just as deserving as Renault were when they beat Ferrari. You can pound the drum of your opinion all you want, but at the end of the day it's just that. You are entitled to your opinion, but not the opinion of others.

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The superficial view would say Mercedes is simply fumbling which on the surface is very much the case. This was where my mindset was a few races back if you read my past posts on the matter. But why are they so rattled this season? That is what l am talking about. One has to peer beyond the obvious to see what is the root cause for their state of affairs. A team and driver pairing that normally operates like a well-oiled machine, do not suddenly become error-prone. That only happens when something is amiss. Go figure!

And yes, l respect your opinion. Opinion are like noses, everybody has one.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

The superficial view would say Mercedes is simply fumbling which on the surface is very much the case. This was where my mindset was a few races back if you read my past posts on the matter. But why are they so rattled this season? That is what l am talking about. One has to peer beyond the obvious to see what is the root cause for their state of affairs. A team and driver pairing that normally operates like a well-oiled machine, do not suddenly become error-prone. That only happens when something is amiss. Go figure!

And yes, l respect your opinion. Opinion are like noses, everybody has one.

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Why is your conspiracy theory more plausible than mine ?
Peer beyond the obvious .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Why is your conspiracy theory more plausible than mine ?
Peer beyond the obvious .

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Baggie, l am not suggesting mine is better than yours. We just have a different perspective. We both agree that the championship this season appears to be manipulated to give an illusion of a shift of superiority from Mercedes to Redbull. You think Mercedes is underplaying its potential; essentially to make the season appear to be hard-fought for. And l take the view that, maybe the F1M has masterminded a situation that could lead to a non-Mercedes outcome to the winner of this season's constructor and driver championships via its 2021 chassis regulation.

Once again. Mercedes dumb strategy costing them. It is beyond ridiculous why they didn't pit Hamilton first is a mystery. Why they left him out to be undercut is another mystery. Its just pathetic